Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Yodeling]

Why would you raise phosphates to extreme levels? 0.10ppm PO4 is the max recommended, but anywhere from 0.03ppm - .10 ppm is fine. As long as it’s not 0.00.

So maybe I misunderstood the recommedation, but according to the OP’s post #905, the proposed remediation for ongoing Ostreopsis outbreak is high flow, low temp, and N : P ratio lower than Redfield. That would mean significantly lower ratio of No3 to Po4 than 10:1 (recommended ranges for reef tanks are actually much higher, more like 50:1). So again, maybe I’m missing something here.

Edit: just to clarify, using a lower ratio, say 8:1, would translate to something like running No3 at 4.0 and Po4 at 0.5.

 

[Miami Reef]

So maybe I misunderstood the recommedation, but according to the OP’s post #905, the proposed remediation for ongoing Ostreopsis outbreak is high flow, low temp, and N : P ratio lower than Redfield. That would mean significantly lower ratio of No3 to Po4 than 10:1 (recommended ranges for reef tanks are actually much higher, more like 50:1). So again, maybe I’m missing something here.

Edit: just to clarify, using a lower ratio, say 8:1, would translate to something like running No3 at 4.0 and Po4 at 0.5.

Using redfield ratio (or any ratio) is not helpful in reef tanks. Randy (chem and biologist and forum moderator) constantly says this.

Chasing ratios can make things worse as you are constantly tinkering. Just keep nutrients above 0.

High flow low temp are just speculations. All you need to do is keep nutrients above 0.

If you want to speed up the process much faster, get a UV sterilizer. This only works with your Dino’s. The pros for you is that your Dino’s detach and float every night.

If you want this biggest punch: get 5 micron filter socks, UV sterilizer, and elevated nutrients. You will remove Dino’s FAST with this method. Everything else is just a bandaid IMO.

 

[ScottB]

So maybe I misunderstood the recommedation, but according to the OP’s post #905, the proposed remediation for ongoing Ostreopsis outbreak is high flow, low temp, and N : P ratio lower than Redfield. That would mean significantly lower ratio of No3 to Po4 than 10:1 (recommended ranges for reef tanks are actually much higher, more like 50:1). So again, maybe I’m missing something here.

Edit: just to clarify, using a lower ratio, say 8:1, would translate to something like running No3 at 4.0 and Po4 at 0.5.

Agree all that @Miami Reef is suggesting. UV is a major play against ostreos.

Getting to .1 on PO4 is fine, anything close to it. You may be SHOCKED by how much solution you have to add to keep it measurable. Your rock and sand will be binding up PO4. In a 200G system with a ton of sump rock I dumped in 2 liters before the rock became saturated enough to release PO4 back into the water.

Keep an eye on your nitrate too. The absence of one nutrient seems to stall the bacterial consumption of the other nutrient. Once you are adding back PO4, you will be restoring the bacteria that process nitrates. It is a thing to watch for.

 

[ScottB]

what type of Dino is this? I’m thinking amphi or proro but I’m not sure.

it’s a major infestation so my current plan of removal is dosing neonitro and neophos to I’m not sure what level yet. Dose microbacter7, Manual removal, directly afterwards a 3 day blackout period, and increased flow. Does this sound good?

Nice picture. Given their symmetrical shape and lack of curved beak: Proro

A properly sized UV, some available nutrients, and a blackout should get you going. Save the blackout until you get the UV hooked up.

 

[Yodeling]

Using redfield ratio (or any ratio) is not helpful in reef tanks. Randy (chem and biologist and forum moderator) constantly says this.

Chasing ratios can make things worse as you are constantly tinkering. Just keep nutrients above 0.

High flow low temp are just speculations. All you need to do is keep nutrients above 0.

If you want to speed up the process much faster, get a UV sterilizer. This only works with your Dino’s. The pros for you is that your Dino’s detach and float every night.

If you want this biggest punch: get 5 micron filter socks, UV sterilizer, and elevated nutrients. You will remove Dino’s FAST with this method. Everything else is just a bandaid IMO.

Agree all that @Miami Reef is suggesting. UV is a major play against ostreos.

Getting to .1 on PO4 is fine, anything close to it. You may be SHOCKED by how much solution you have to add to keep it measurable. Your rock and sand will be binding up PO4. In a 200G system with a ton of sump rock I dumped in 2 liters before the rock became saturated enough to release PO4 back into the water.

Keep an eye on your nitrate too. The absence of one nutrient seems to stall the bacterial consumption of the other nutrient. Once you are adding back PO4, you will be restoring the bacteria that process nitrates. It is a thing to watch for.

Thanks guys. I started dosing No3 and Po4 4 times per day to spread it evenly (using a doser). I also took my refugium offline to reduce nutrient depletion. Hoping to raise the nutrients slowly to desired levels and adjust dosing as needed. These are the only steps I'm taking so far and I'll see how things pan out.

 

[ScottB]

Thanks guys. I started dosing No3 and Po4 4 times per day to spread it evenly (using a doser). I also took my refugium offline to reduce nutrient depletion. Hoping to raise the nutrients slowly to desired levels and adjust dosing as needed. These are the only steps I'm taking so far and I'll see how things pan out.

You will likely get there in the end. With patience. But do some research on the UV side of things.

 

[Yodeling]

You will likely get there in the end. With patience. But do some research on the UV side of things.

The tank is not small, so I will try other methods before dropping $800 on a UV. I've had one before many years ago but it ended up just sitting unused, ended up selling it. Plus, I don't like to take super drastic measures at the first sign of trouble - I usually end up making things worse.

 

[Miami Reef]

The tank is not small, so I will try other methods before dropping $800 on a UV. I've had one before many years ago but it ended up just sitting unused, ended up selling it. Plus, I don't like to take super drastic measures at the first sign of trouble - I usually end up making things worse.

I didn’t purchase a UV either and I’m beating my Dinos. The only difference between our Dinos is that yours is much more toxic AND it free swims at night.

If you do not want a UV (totally understand that) please purchase the smallest micron socks you can get. Under 20 microns is ideal. If not, line a 100 micron with bounty paper towels and change it every morning. You will remove a ton of dinos.

Also, run activated carbon and change them weekly.

In my opinion, I feel it’s easier to outcompete osteoporosis dinos because they let go of their substrate every night. They don’t have a stable place and risk getting outcompeted when they let go of it. The downsides is that they are toxic to easily outcompete anything.

I think you best plan of action (without UV) will be this:

Activated carbon changed weekly
Run the smallest micron filter socks (works like a UV would by removing the free swimmers)
Reduce lighting to 5 hours a day.
Dose microbacter 7
Elevated nutrients (0.10 phosphates and 5-10 nitrates.).

You will win this. I think the most important things on this list are the filter socks and elevated nutrients. Everything else will help reduce the toxic effects, lower their growth rate, or help you outcompete them with other organisms quicker.

 

[Yodeling]

...

So I'm starting to lean towards just getting a UV. But before I drop some cash I would like definitive confirmation that it's Ostreopsis. Can I get a some confirmations on this?

Behavior: Moving slowly, sometimes in circles. Turning over. In the tank, they form small strands on various surfaces. Almost no bubbles forming. The strands stay on the surfaces at night (I thought Ostreopsis would disappear overnight).

Here are some more pictures:

 

[Miami Reef]

I don’t know if you wanted a different opinion than mine, but that clearly looks like Ostreopsis, especially if it’s rolling around.

UV will definitely knock it down faster. But the root cause of this was nutrient imbalance.

For the UV, you need 1 watt per 3 gallons.

If your lights are on for too long they will not leave the sandbed (this was my experience with coolia). Definitely temporary lower lighting hours to coax them out into the water column.

 

[Yodeling]

I don’t know if you wanted a different opinion than mine, but that clearly looks like Ostreopsis, especially if it’s rolling around.

UV will definitely knock it down faster. But the root cause of this was nutrient imbalance.

For the UV, you need 1 watt per 3 gallons.

If your lights are on for too long they will not leave the sandbed (this was my experience with coolia). Definitely temporary lower lighting hours to coax them out into the water column.

I would like one or two people to confirm that ID before I make a UV purchase. No offense, you seem very knowledgeable.

Interestingly, I seem to also be experiencing a diatom bloom after raising phosphates. My theory is that diatoms weren't able to fully complete their bloom after cycle because of low/zero phosphates. The tank is 4 months old.

 

[Miami Reef]

I would like one or two people to confirm that ID before I make a UV purchase. No offense, you seem very knowledgeable.

Interestingly, I seem to also be experiencing a diatom bloom after raising phosphates. My theory is that diatoms weren't able to fully complete their bloom after cycle because of low/zero phosphates. The tank is 4 months old.

No offense taken.

 

[vtecintegra]

Identification

If you currently have pest algae in your aquarium and would like help identifying your pest, please consider mailing me a sample. I can provide an ID, and if your pest isn’t already pictured h…

algaeid.com

Looks like ostreopsis to me.

 

[Yodeling]

@vtecintegra hanks for the confirmation,

So the Pentair High Output UV should be here Thursday, along with a DC pump. I'll plumb it as a closed loop on the DT.

Until then:
- Keeping No3 at 8-10 and Po4 at 0.1 via a doser.
- Decreased photoperiod to 5 hours (starting today)
- Running carbon.
- I am turning the refugium back on so the macro doesn't die. I'll run it for 3 hours per day during the day.

The outbreak doesn't seem too bad (yet?). All the corals, fish, and snails seem to be doing ok, knock on wood. I'm also hoping that the (totally unexpected) diatom bloom will slow down the dino spread. I think I'll forgo adding the bacteria for now since the diatoms are so prolific. Am I missing anything?

 

[Yodeling]

Oh, one thing I'm not clear on (I've seen recommendations both ways), should I stop water changes? I have AWC normally changing 3 gallons per day (on a 200g system). I stopped it for now, but it's seriously triggering my OCD. What's the verdict on that?

 

[vtecintegra]

I think the "stop water changes" is regurgitated too much. At most, it plays a minor roll. If doing water changes contributed to dinos so much, then everyone doing water changes would be complaining of dinos. Obviously not happening. Key is getting their competition to flourish and out compete them. I wouldn't worry about it. I'm sure someone has the opposite opinion, though.

 

[Yodeling]

Just some additional videos. I also noticed tiny little fast moving "creatures". Not sure what they are. Any ideas? Best examples in the first and last videos. Last video looks like they are bullying the big one.

This is all pretty fascinating TBH.

 

[Scheel78]

I'm dosing sponge excel, hoping to create a diatom bloom. I have roughly 220 gallons water volume in my tank. How much sponge excel can I dose per day to raise silicate level. Does sponge excel have an effect on PH?

 

[saltyhog]

Nice picture. Given their symmetrical shape and lack of curved beak: Proro

A properly sized UV, some available nutrients, and a blackout should get you going. Save the blackout until you get the UV hooked up.

Scott, have you seen success with UV and Prorocentrum? I've primarily seen it help(remarkably) with Ostreopsis and Coolia. There are several different variants of Prorocentrum but I've not had UV be of much help with them.

 

[ScottB]

Scott, have you seen success with UV and Prorocentrum? I've primarily seen it help(remarkably) with Ostreopsis and Coolia. There are several different variants of Prorocentrum but I've not had UV be of much help with them.

I do not have direct experience with coolia, but yes on both ostreopsis and prorocentrum.

With ostresopsis, I never needed to black out the tank, just dose nutrient and apply UV. With proro -- ID'd by @taricha -- at a store FOWLR tank, I was advised to black out the tank and apply UV. The tank was overblown with nutrient and in direct winter (evening) sun so it was an odd case. But it worked. After 36 hours the sand was clean.

Thank you for reminding me about how this might have been an odd case.