Dinoflagellates caused by an abundance of untestable organic nutrients in our tanks.

[MnFish1]

I you can't easily tell me about the nitrogen cycle I guess we have nothing left to talk about.

What do you mean? Telling you about the nitrogen cycle would take 10 pages. Lol. I’m asking you to link dinoflaggelates to the chemistries in our tanks. It’s your theory not mine

 

[Mortie31]

I’ll repost this, it was in another R2R discussion about Triton and N-DOC, again it raises more questions than answers, and where Chris may be getting all of his “theories” from, in that thread triton didn’t answer again, despite being asked directly, but they never do when anyone challenges them or their data. https://gallery.mailchimp.com/159b2...c45/Triton_Tech_Paper_TRITON_Ratios_final.pdf

 

[MnFish1]

I’ll repost this, it was in another R2R discussion about Triton and N-DOC, again it raises more questions than answers, and where Chris may be getting all of his “theories” from, in that thread triton didn’t answer again, despite being asked directly, but they never do when anyone challenges them or their data. https://gallery.mailchimp.com/159b2...c45/Triton_Tech_Paper_TRITON_Ratios_final.pdf

The point being just because someone thinks something doesn’t make it a fact. The op has several sentences on which various theories are based that are factually incorrect. If the theories are based on nonfactual information how does one discuss a theoey

 

[Mortie31]

The point being just because someone thinks something doesn’t make it a fact. The op has several sentences on which various theories are based that are factually incorrect. If the theories are based on nonfactual information how does one discuss a theoey

Completely agree and a lot of those theories are straight from triton literature, whose theories and methodology in data collection has been widely discussed in other threads

 

[Chris Villalobos]

Why is it silly not to be very interested in Dissolved Organic Nitrogen (DON) in limited Dissolved Inorganic Nitrogen (DIN) water when dealing with Dinos and Cyano? Clip below is from “Nitrogen in the Marine Environment”. If you have Dinos or Cyano blooms in your tank your water isn’t low nutrient you probably just aren’t testing for the right nutrients. This is also why we shouldn’t pour amino acids or fish food into our tanks to raise inorganics when Dinos are blooming. The Dinos will just out compete the other organisms. Other members of Reef2Reef have also seen this effect by purposefully feeding a Dino bloom with amino acids.

https://books.google.com/books?id=B...ge&q=DON dinoflagellates limited DIN&f=false

 

[MnFish1]

Why is it silly not to be very interested in Dissolved Organic Nitrogen (DON) in limited Dissolved Inorganic Nitrogen (DIN) water when dealing with Dinos and Cyano? Clip below is from “Nitrogen in the Marine Environment”. If you have Dinos or Cyano blooms in your tank your water isn’t low nutrient you probably just aren’t testing for the right nutrients. This is also why we shouldn’t pour amino acids or fish food into our tanks to raise inorganics when Dinos are blooming. The Dinos will just out compete the other organisms. Other members of Reef2Reef have also seen this effect by purposefully feeding a Dino bloom with amino acids.

https://books.google.com/books?id=BZOJxwf6W_MC&pg=PA336&lpg=PA336&dq=DON++dinoflagellates+limited+DIN&source=bl&ots=zxENnCX0h4&sig=ACfU3U3G7zaREAovcNmS_7mx_sR9VH4_5w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjo17rh3bHhAhVDqp4KHbnkCtAQ6AEwBnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=DON dinoflagellates limited DIN&f=false

I agree with you its interesting to look at all issues. We're talking about your original post - which to me still doesnt make sense. You say:

So the key to beating Dinoflagellates is reducing our feedings but also reducing the efficiency of our NO3 and PO4 exports. Or we need to find a way of making the nitrogen cycle itself more efficient.

I only made the point that decreasing feedings is the opposite of reducing the efficiency of No3 and PO4 exports. IMO - organic nutrients are converted to inorganic compounds over time. No more no less. Do you have a reason to suggest that thats incorrect? Of course - there is no 'proof' that its the 'total organic nutrients' in the water as compared to a 'single compound' thats also measured in 'total organic nutrients' thats actually responsible for cyanobacteria or dinos (meaning that unless you have that specific organic nutrient present - the total doesn't mean anything).

 

[Mortie31]

Why is it silly not to be very interested in Dissolved Organic Nitrogen (DON) in limited Dissolved Inorganic Nitrogen (DIN) water when dealing with Dinos and Cyano? Clip below is from “Nitrogen in the Marine Environment”. If you have Dinos or Cyano blooms in your tank your water isn’t low nutrient you probably just aren’t testing for the right nutrients. This is also why we shouldn’t pour amino acids or fish food into our tanks to raise inorganics when Dinos are blooming. The Dinos will just out compete the other organisms. Other members of Reef2Reef have also seen this effect by purposefully feeding a Dino bloom with amino acids.

https://books.google.com/books?id=BZOJxwf6W_MC&pg=PA336&lpg=PA336&dq=DON++dinoflagellates+limited+DIN&source=bl&ots=zxENnCX0h4&sig=ACfU3U3G7zaREAovcNmS_7mx_sR9VH4_5w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjo17rh3bHhAhVDqp4KHbnkCtAQ6AEwBnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=DON dinoflagellates limited DIN&f=false

You and I must read this entirely differently all it says too me is that dinoflagellates have versatile metabolisms.

 

[MnFish1]

Why is it silly not to be very interested in Dissolved Organic Nitrogen (DON) in limited Dissolved Inorganic Nitrogen (DIN) water when dealing with Dinos and Cyano? Clip below is from “Nitrogen in the Marine Environment”. If you have Dinos or Cyano blooms in your tank your water isn’t low nutrient you probably just aren’t testing for the right nutrients. This is also why we shouldn’t pour amino acids or fish food into our tanks to raise inorganics when Dinos are blooming. The Dinos will just out compete the other organisms. Other members of Reef2Reef have also seen this effect by purposefully feeding a Dino bloom with amino acids.

https://books.google.com/books?id=BZOJxwf6W_MC&pg=PA336&lpg=PA336&dq=DON++dinoflagellates+limited+DIN&source=bl&ots=zxENnCX0h4&sig=ACfU3U3G7zaREAovcNmS_7mx_sR9VH4_5w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjo17rh3bHhAhVDqp4KHbnkCtAQ6AEwBnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=DON dinoflagellates limited DIN&f=false

Sorry - I meant to mention your paragraph - it says that cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates can use dissolved organic nitrogen components ..... So? So can bacteria and lots of other things. It doesnt mean that levels of dissolved nitrogen components predict levels of cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates - or does it?

 

[Mortie31]

Don’t get me wrong @Chris Villalobos i do hope that Triton do come forward and prove what there suggesting about DON levels and cyano/dinos, as a simple test would help lots of reefers, unfortunately as of yet I haven’t seen anything resembling a provable connection, let alone one that we can predictable change..

 

[MnFish1]

Don’t get me wrong @Chris Villalobos i do hope that Triton do come forward and prove what there suggesting about DON levels and cyanogen/dinos, as a simple test would help lots of reefers, unfortunately as of yet I haven’t seen anything resembling a measurable cause and effect, let alone one that we can predictable change..

My question is - aside from water changes (since skimmers, etc dont work) - what would you do. It seems as if the best solution would be to not test - just do regular water changes to reduce dissolved organics - or am I missing something?

 

[Mortie31]

My question is - aside from water changes (since skimmers, etc dont work) - what would you do. It seems as if the best solution would be to not test - just do regular water changes to reduce dissolved organics - or am I missing something?

That’s all I’ve ever done, and I’ve had cyano doing daily water changes, saying that I don’t believe that water changes dilute anything significantly unless the very large and very frequent. I’ve recently switched to full triton with a fuge and hopefully I’ll be doing zero water changes so we’ll see over the next few years how things progress. I’ve never had dinos in 15 years in the hobby, but have had issues with cyano , which have always resolved by increasing or decreasing my NO3 levels... but I keep my nutrients well above zero PO4 0.06 ish and NO3 10-20.

 

[MnFish1]

That’s all I’ve ever done, and I’ve had cyano doing daily water changes, saying that I don’t believe that water changes dilute anything significantly unless the very large and very frequent. I’ve recently switched to full triton with a fuge and hopefully I’ll be doing zero water changes so we’ll see over the next few years how things progress. I’ve never had dinos in 15 years in the hobby, but have had issues with dinos, which have always resolved by increasing or decreasing my NO3 levels... but I keep my nutrients well above zero PO4 0.06 ish and NO3 10-20.

The problem I have with water changes is that I hate doing them lol... I have decreased the frequency and without measuring anything haven't seen any problems. I also hate testing - instead trying to test when things look 'off'. There is certainly no right or wrong method - but - if I had the opportunity - I would set up and auto water change system where each day a certain percent was changed - that I think would be best - but - it doesnt work for where my tank currently resides...

 

[DesertReefBoy]

That’s all I’ve ever done, and I’ve had cyano doing daily water changes, saying that I don’t believe that water changes dilute anything significantly unless the very large and very frequent. I’ve recently switched to full triton with a fuge and hopefully I’ll be doing zero water changes so we’ll see over the next few years how things progress. I’ve never had dinos in 15 years in the hobby, but have had issues with cyano , which have always resolved by increasing or decreasing my NO3 levels... but I keep my nutrients well above zero PO4 0.06 ish and NO3 10-20.

Hey I am struggling with some red cyano and multiple people have suggested using chemiclean. I bought it yesterday but really don’t want to use it. I would like to find the source of the issue. My No3 has been between 2-4 ppm (Red Sea pro) Po4 0.02-0.03 ppm (Hanna checker). I do weekly 10% water changes and have decent flow roughly 60x. I do have a newer tank. Live rock is 8-9 months old and has been in my tank for 4 months. What would you recommend to best the cyano? So far it hasn’t effected any of my coral only a eye sore.

 

[MnFish1]

Hey I am struggling with some red cyano and multiple people have suggested using chemiclean. I bought it yesterday but really don’t want to use it. I would like to find the source of the issue. My No3 has been between 2-4 ppm (Red Sea pro) Po4 0.02-0.03 ppm (Hanna checker). I do weekly 10% water changes and have decent flow roughly 60x. I do have a newer tank. Live rock is 8-9 months old and has been in my tank for 4 months. What would you recommend to best the cyano? So far it hasn’t effected any of my coral only a eye sore.

I would use chemiclean - or just keep doing what you're doing.

 

[DesertReefBoy]

I would use chemiclean - or just keep doing what you're doing.

Do you have any ideas what I am doing wrong?

 

[Chris Villalobos]

I know I have a lot of skeptics, but please refrain from hijacking this thread if you don’t believe the method I stated in my original post. I really don’t want this thread to become like the pinned one where ideas just come and go with the tide. In the next few weeks I’ll come back with more N-DOC results.

 

[MnFish1]

I know I have a lot of skeptics, but please refrain from hijacking this thread if you don’t believe the method I stated in my original post. I really don’t want this thread to become like the pinned one where ideas just come and go with the tide. In the next few weeks I’ll come back with more N-DOC results.

Sorry - if you meant me - Back to the method - so part 1 is reducing feeding part 2 is decreasing the efficiency of export mechanisms of NO3 and PO4. Don't most of the export methods (for NO3 especially) - also remove organic N? again - maybe I'm not understanding - are you suggesting people are overfeeding 'fish food', 'coral food' or other 'additives'? By the way im not sure your hypothesis about dinos is 'incorrect'. My confusion is how what your suggesting (or what anyone could suggest - besides water changes) would lower organic N.

 

[Chris Villalobos]

Sorry - if you meant me - Back to the method - so part 1 is reducing feeding part 2 is decreasing the efficiency of export mechanisms of NO3 and PO4. Don't most of the export methods (for NO3 especially) - also remove organic N? again - maybe I'm not understanding - are you suggesting people are overfeeding 'fish food', 'coral food' or other 'additives'? By the way im not sure your hypothesis about dinos is 'incorrect'. My confusion is how what your suggesting (or what anyone could suggest - besides water changes) would lower organic N.

I've got some N-DOC tests coming in the mail. Let's wait and see what type of results I get.

 

[Mortie31]

I know I have a lot of skeptics, but please refrain from hijacking this thread if you don’t believe the method I stated in my original post. I really don’t want this thread to become like the pinned one where ideas just come and go with the tide. In the next few weeks I’ll come back with more N-DOC results.

So I’m guessing by this statement you don’t want any challenges to your theory and you simply want to write an article.. if that’s the case why didn’t you just right what you thought and then present it as a finished article, this is an open forum and people can equally agree or disagree with each other

 

[Chris Villalobos]

So I’m guessing by this statement you don’t want any challenges to your theory and you simply want to write an article.. if that’s the case why didn’t you just right what you thought and then present it as a finished article, this is an open forum and people can equally agree or disagree with each other

Please just wait a few weeks when I have more data.