Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!

[Paullawr]

Thank you Paullawr but its not lovely for me anymore with all those almost death corals Dinos took away the joy of this hobby for me.

I hear you. They did the same for me. I had them not once, not twice but three times. The first two times I beat. Well the tank did on the second time. I woke up one morning an all gone...

The last time i was exhausted fighting them.

I tried h202, ozone, UV, carbon dosing, no carbon dosing, massive kalk slurry attacks, heavy gfo, water changes, no water changes, blackouts, full fresh water fill of tank and sump.....They come back.

Only way i beat them this time was to break it down and start over.

Still paranoid now. Still check like i.did tonight. When saw some small white furry spots on glass that i am yet to ID. Nothing moving on microscope though.

Been clear since October.

Why does those sound like we are members of some alcoholic anonymous group....Said this before but hell it does sound that way.

 

[Paullawr]

It's a horrible pest. A million times worse than aiptasia or bryopsis.

 

[Jolanta]

I hear you. They did the same for me. I had them not once, not twice but three times. The first two times I beat. Well the tank did on the second time. I woke up one morning an all gone...

The last time i was exhausted fighting them.

I tried h202, ozone, UV, carbon dosing, no carbon dosing, massive kalk slurry attacks, heavy gfo, water changes, no water changes, blackouts, full fresh water fill of tank and sump.....They come back.

Only way i beat them this time was to break it down and start over.

Still paranoid now. Still check like i.did tonight. When saw some small white furry spots on glass that i am yet to ID. Nothing moving on microscope though.

Been clear since October.

Why does those sound like we are members of some alcoholic anonymous group....Said this before but hell it does sound that way.

I really understand you, I think Im almost mental sick becouse the dinos is all I think of all day long, I see pictures of friends tanks and fist thing I seek is brown strings, I feel like I see them everywhere and Im really close to take a break from this hobby till the dino cure is found. Im just scared I will make a startover and they will return on some frag or fish.

 

[Scubabeth]

I really understand you, I think Im almost mental sick becouse the dinos is all I think of all day long, I see pictures of friends tanks and fist thing I seek is brown strings, I feel like I see them everywhere and Im really close to take a break from this hobby till the dino cure is found. Im just scared I will make a startover and they will return on some frag or fish.

@Jolanta, keep your head up! I am really sorry about your blend death and your CUC deaths; that is hard! @Paullawr is right; your rock work looks really nicely done, and you still have a great tank! Just a question--after your blackout, did you go back to full lights right away, or did you ramp back up to full lights over the course of a couple days? It's hard because everyone's tank is so individual that what works for one may not work for another person. I know what you both mean about fixating on dinos! Stupid things! We haven't had a bloom since Nov, but I still check under the scope at least every other day to see what's going on.

 

[mwilk19]

Thank you Paullawr but its not lovely for me anymore with all those almost death corals Dinos took away the joy of this hobby for me.

I feel your pain. I'm almost afraid to look in my tank anymore to see what coral is dying next. I won't give up and you shouldn't either. I'm thinking of getting a UV sterilizer and seeing if that help.

 

[Jolanta]

@Jolanta, keep your head up! I am really sorry about your blend death and your CUC deaths; that is hard! @Paullawr is right; your rock work looks really nicely done, and you still have a great tank! Just a question--after your blackout, did you go back to full lights right away, or did you ramp back up to full lights over the course of a couple days? It's hard because everyone's tank is so individual that what works for one may not work for another person. I know what you both mean about fixating on dinos! Stupid things! We haven't had a bloom since Nov, but I still check under the scope at least every other day to see what's going on.

Thank you very much for your kind words Scubabeth. The firsh two day after the black out I run 4 hours of 4 t5 tubes, yesterday and today 6 hours and I think I will stay this way. I almost forgat how my full power light looks like, Im scared to put all t5s on.

 

[Jolanta]

I feel your pain. I'm almost afraid to look in my tank anymore to see what coral is dying next. I won't give up and you shouldn't either. I'm thinking of getting a UV sterilizer and seeing if that help.

You are right we should keen on fighting but sometimes I just feel so tired of it

 

[taricha]

I think it busts even the double thick cyst wall, but I don't 100% remember.

I tested this to confirm. Although the salinity drop had to be bigger than it was for ostreopsis, amphidinium cells also bust with fresh water, and I even found a double thick walled ostreopsis cyst to check. Busts under FW in seconds.

So livestock that can handle even a few seconds of FW dip can be rid of dino hitchhikers.

 

[Cflip]

I hear you. They did the same for me. I had them not once, not twice but three times. The first two times I beat. Well the tank did on the second time. I woke up one morning an all gone...

The last time i was exhausted fighting them.

I tried h202, ozone, UV, carbon dosing, no carbon dosing, massive kalk slurry attacks, heavy gfo, water changes, no water changes, blackouts, full fresh water fill of tank and sump.....They come back.

Only way i beat them this time was to break it down and start over.

Still paranoid now. Still check like i.did tonight. When saw some small white furry spots on glass that i am yet to ID. Nothing moving on microscope though.

Been clear since October.

Why does those sound like we are members of some alcoholic anonymous group....Said this before but hell it does sound that way.

I also had some eraser sized white spots on my glass. I was wondering what it was.

 

[taricha]

you might one to run an small experiment.

Use say 100ml of tank water in a couple of containers. Then add in one 1ml h202 and in the second 10ml h202....

The purpose is to see at what concentration disrupt the cell wall per ratio of h202.

I know h202 works at concentrated levels - it's at what level.

The same trial could also be applied to free swimmers.

I've actually done this test... (btw h2o2 doesn't lyse the dino cells. It penetrates the wall and oxidizes cell machinery inside. In my experience, it kills leaving cells intact).
.....

From another forum...

tldr version: confirming what we already knew, peroxide is nearly useless on ostreopsis dinoflagellates.


I did a couple more tests.
Concentration mL/L - cells active 24hr later?
H2O2 - light - dark
1.6 - Yes - Yes
1.8 - Yes - Yes
2.0 - No - No
2.1 - Yes - Yes
2.2 - No - No
2.3 - No - No
2.4 - No - No

When the dinos were inhibited by 2.0 ml/L the peroxide bottle had just been opened 5 minutes before dosing. When the dinos remained active the next day after a 2.1 ml/L dose, the peroxide bottle had been opened and sampled from a couple of times a day every day for 2 weeks. Not inconceivable that a fresh bottle might be 10-20% more effective. Or this could just be random error.

secondly, I'd like to point out the massive difference in concentrations required by different dinos:
From study posted a while back:
tiny, unarmoured amphidinium carterae was 90% inhibited by 6.4mg/L (the equivalent of 0.21ml of 3% peroxide per Liter)
medium sized armored prorocentrum micans was only 11% inhibited at that dose.
And the huge armored Ostreopsis Ovata - in my beakers at least - seems to require literally 10 times the dose (2 to 2.5ml/L aka 7.5 to 10ml/gallon) of amphidinium carterae to achieve that level of inhibition.

Another single run possibly interesting result (but it's just one trial):
I dosed 2.5ml/L into two samples: one was just Ostis, the other was ostis + teeny tiny slivers of chaeto and caulerpa to see if the dinos survived better with another oxidizer target in the beaker with them.
The plain ostis beaker was totally inhibited, the one with slivers of macroalgae had half the ostis still spinning around, active. Suggests that in a tankwide treatment, the presence of other targets for the oxidizer would require either even higher h2o2 doses, or more of them, or both.

Later tests, I found the amphidinium result from the study impossible to replicate in a small tank. I was dumping 10x the peroxide the paper predicted, and not killing the little buggers.

I think that result was because h2o2 had lots of other targets in the tank.

Edit: Dang. I found an old post of mine I forgot about. When I hit an ostreopsis beaker with multiple non-lethal doses of h2o2 over 3 days, in one test they all gradually changed shape to totally spherical.

 

[Jolanta]

Its a really good news, thank you for making those test for us. If I ever manage to get rid of them I will freshwater dip everything.
I took some sample from my overflow, it looked like brown string and that what I saw

I coudnt see any dino moving. I took also a sample from the same brown stain I saw dinos in yesterday and they defiitively dont have cyst wall around, and today there were no one moving. I took the brown stain out syphoning with air tubbing and made a test with peroxide but when I take a sample from the water I cant find any dinos, I will wait maybe they will settle on the bottom or I need to wait to grow some more becouse a small number gests lost in a water. I still cant see any ostreopsis ovata in my samples

 

[mandrieu]

I hear you. They did the same for me. I had them not once, not twice but three times. The first two times I beat. Well the tank did on the second time. I woke up one morning an all gone...

The last time i was exhausted fighting them.

I tried h202, ozone, UV, carbon dosing, no carbon dosing, massive kalk slurry attacks, heavy gfo, water changes, no water changes, blackouts, full fresh water fill of tank and sump.....They come back.

Only way i beat them this time was to break it down and start over.

Still paranoid now. Still check like i.did tonight. When saw some small white furry spots on glass that i am yet to ID. Nothing moving on microscope though.

Been clear since October.

Why does those sound like we are members of some alcoholic anonymous group....Said this before but hell it does sound that way.

That sounds like my story too... I got to the point, about 18 months ago where I broke down the tank, dumped 1 gallon of bleach into it and started from zero. Guess what: about 6 months ago they appeared again and here I am...

 

[mandrieu]

I feel your pain. I'm almost afraid to look in my tank anymore to see what coral is dying next. I won't give up and you shouldn't either. I'm thinking of getting a UV sterilizer and seeing if that help.

It may depend on what kind of dinos you have. In my case they are in the sand, for the most part. UV didn't help. Blackouts haven't helped either. I tried all combinations, 3, 4, 5 days. Nothing, in a day or two they are back full force

 

[Jolanta]

So when I came back home from work today it costed me a while to find a brown spot to take a sample, they are not growing back as quick, but I'm so scared to be happy. In a sample I took today there are only few dinos and some are moving, I hope you guys can help me to identify if its still o. Ovata or other tipe.

 

[Velcro]

That sounds like my story too... I got to the point, about 18 months ago where I broke down the tank, dumped 1 gallon of bleach into it and started from zero. Guess what: about 6 months ago they appeared again and here I am...

Did you transfer any coral or livestock from the previous tank back to the restart?

 

[mandrieu]

Did you transfer any coral or livestock from the previous tank back to the restart?

Between dinos and the million treatments I tried I had basically nothing left, corals or fish. I kept the rocks and sand in the tank, dumped 1 gallon of bleach and run the tank like that for a week. 1 year later, boom... they started showing up again in the sand, same as before. For the past six months I've been trying everything I tried before, plus the "new" things I didn't try before like Vibrant, bleach in different concentrations, H2O2 in different concentrations, all of them combined with and without blackouts. No positive results to speak of and again I lost half of my fish and corals, unfortunately. Seriously thinking about getting a dog...

 

[Jolanta]

Between dinos and the million treatments I tried I had basically nothing left, corals or fish. I kept the rocks and sand in the tank, dumped 1 gallon of bleach and run the tank like that for a week. 1 year later, boom... they started showing up again in the sand, same as before. For the past six months I've been trying everything I tried before, plus the "new" things I didn't try before like Vibrant, bleach in different concentrations, H2O2 in different concentrations, all of them combined with and without blackouts. No positive results to speak of and again I lost half of my fish and corals, unfortunately. Seriously thinking about getting a dog...

Im so sorry for you, I think it would be a good idea to start all new or take out the sand, maybe somehow some cyst stay alive in the sand, I better removed the sand when I knew I have dinos and left my tank barebottom.

 

[Scubabeth]

I've actually done this test... (btw h2o2 doesn't lyse the dino cells. It penetrates the wall and oxidizes cell machinery inside. In my experience, it kills leaving cells intact).
.....

From another forum...


Later tests, I found the amphidinium result from the study impossible to replicate in a small tank. I was dumping 10x the peroxide the paper predicted, and not killing the little buggers.

I think that result was because h2o2 had lots of other targets in the tank.

Edit: Dang. I found an old post of mine I forgot about. When I hit an ostreopsis beaker with multiple non-lethal doses of h2o2 over 3 days, in one test they all gradually changed shape to totally spherical.

Interesting about the effects of peroxide when other living things are present; totally makes sense, @taricha. Too bad there are other living things in our tanks, eh? Well, when it comes to ridding dinos, that is. Lots of good stuff; thank you for working on this!

 

[Scubabeth]

So when I came back home from work today it costed me a while to find a brown spot to take a sample, they are not growing back as quick, but I'm so scared to be happy. In a sample I took today there are only few dinos and some are moving, I hope you guys can help me to identify if its still o. Ovata or other tipe.

@Jolanta, I know what you mean about being cautiously happy...don't want to be smashed down again if they return in force. It seems really encouraging, though, that the brown strands you took from your overflow were just algae, not dinos! Yay! From the video you posted above with moving dinos that aren't Ostreos, they do look like the coolia dinos @taricha mentioned to you the other day. (Look back at our dialogue and you'll see pics and videos of what we think are coolia; you can see if you think it looks like yours, too.) Both he and I see (or have seen in the past) cells in our tanks, but are not blooming. Anyway, I am so encouraged for you!

 

[Jolanta]

@Jolanta, I know what you mean about being cautiously happy...don't want to be smashed down again if they return in force. It seems really encouraging, though, that the brown strands you took from your overflow were just algae, not dinos! Yay! From the video you posted above with moving dinos that aren't Ostreos, they do look like the coolia dinos @taricha mentioned to you the other day. (Look back at our dialogue and you'll see pics and videos of what we think are coolia; you can see if you think it looks like yours, too.) Both he and I see (or have seen in the past) cells in our tanks, but are not blooming. Anyway, I am so encouraged for you!

Yes I was looking at the video and pictures of coolia and it definitively looks like that and moves like that If they dont stress my corals I could definitively live with them. I will continue to use vibrant and peroxide and hope it will stay this way. Thank you very much for your help!