Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!

taricha

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Anyone have an ID on these guys? Have treated with bleach 3 times, done two blackouts, and currently am using H2O2 to slow their spread. They keep coming back:-/

Amphidinium operculatum or similar. It's slightly funny shaped, but that kind of chemical stress can cause shape change.

One recurring issue we haven't dealt with in all these chemical treatments is how the sandbed protects from chemicals. (Especially amphidinium that can go down into sand at night)
Think how much organics are trapped in sand and how much oxidizer they could neutralize.
You imply that bleach reduces their presence, so next time you treat - turn a powerhead into the sand and blast every single grain of sand up into the treated water flow.
 

Paullawr

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They're riding the carbon-source+GFO wave of popularity. Keeping near-zero nutrient levels has been popularized as being an easy, no-brainer solution to over-stocked, over-fed tanks. Nothing is that simple. ;)



A medicinal treatment like that is supposed to knock back the invader to allow the system itself to recover. This is how we look at infections in humans and in fish. It's a mistake for us not to look at the whole tank this way.

We need to eliminate the conditions that allowed these bugs to outcompete everything in the tank, including their predators. We also need to make sure there's something more beneficent to take it's space.



I think we're starting to imagine the possibility of a sterile reef tank when we go that far. No way, IMO.



I hope this isn't a completely dead horse, but is this documented somewhere? I'd appreciate a shortcut to some literature if you/anyone has some already.



Great summary!!!!

My blog (see my sig) has had a link I've cited numerous times....I think even here in this thread a few times...

Bacterivory in algae: A survival strategy during nutrient limitation (c1993)

Here's the abstract, but the whole article is available:
Bacterivory in obligate phototrophic algal flagellates may be an important strategy for acquiring nutrients during periods of inorganic nutrient limitation. Several marine algal flagellates were shown to increase bactivory when phosphate was limited. Grazing on bacteria by algal flagellates was found during blooms of Prymnesium parvum in Sandsljorden, western Norway, in 1989 and Chrysochromulina polylepis on the south and west coast of Norway in 1988. Dissolved phosphate was not detectable in these situations. Algal flagellates may graze bacteria to obtain phosphate, which may permit these algal flagellates to develop blooms when phosphate becomes limited.



+1 on trying UV.

Properly sized and installed, as you suggest.

I wouldn't install one without talking to the manufacturer. (And I wouldn't buy one without understanding the mfgr's recommendation!)

I'd also use some diatom filtration as another possible supplement.

Another thing I've run into (can't recall which article....maybe one already linked on my blog) is that some dino's apparently have a reverse daylight cycle...rather than responding to extended dark like we're familiar with, they respond to extended light periods.

I've never heard of anyone trying it, but it seems like an EXTENDED LIGHTS-ON could be a logical thing to experiment with if a BLACKOUT has no effect.

Now that's interesting. We know they don't like direct light. They always form in areas where the light is less focused.
Oddly enough that might indicate why there are more reported cases now. What with LEDs being more point of source. Giving optimal areas outside of narrow hot spots.

Many strands of algae require a rest period from photosynthesis. Would it be that far fetched to think protists also need a respite....?
Maybe cranking the lights.up to 100....
 

Paullawr

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Amphidinium operculatum or similar. It's slightly funny shaped, but that kind of chemical stress can cause shape change.

One recurring issue we haven't dealt with in all these chemical treatments is how the sandbed protects from chemicals. (Especially amphidinium that can go down into sand at night)
Think how much organics are trapped in sand and how much oxidizer they could neutralize.
You imply that bleach reduces their presence, so next time you treat - turn a powerhead into the sand and blast every single grain of sand up into the treated water flow.
+1
Been saying this since twillard confirmed survival of cells two inches down in sandbed. After extended bleach dose that is...
 

Jolanta

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Been saying this since twillard confirmed survival of cells two inches down in sandbed. After extended bleach dose that is...
Maybe thats why some have succes with bleach or peroxide and others dont, I think removing the sand is the best we can do when we have a dino bloom.
 

mandrieu

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Been saying this since twillard confirmed survival of cells two inches down in sandbed. After extended bleach dose that is...
Yeah, I tried that when dosing bleach by stirring the sandbed like crazy. I dosed 10 ml of 8% bleach twice a day for 3 days (tank water volume approx 100 gallons), twice. Didn't help. I think the idea is sound, but the reality is you don't get to kill them all, so as long as there's some left they come back with a vengeance.
 

mandrieu

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Maybe thats why some have succes with bleach or peroxide and others dont, I think removing the sand is the best we can do when we have a dino bloom.
I'm on it... I removed quite a bit of sand already but it will take me until next weekend to remove it all (I hope). We'll see.
 

taricha

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They're riding the carbon-source+GFO wave of popularity.

A medicinal treatment like that is supposed to knock back the invader to allow the system itself to recover. This is how we look at infections in humans and in fish. It's a mistake for us not to look at the whole tank this way.

We need to eliminate the conditions that allowed these bugs to outcompete everything in the tank, including their predators. We also need to make sure there's something more beneficent to take it's space.
100% this is where my dino reading + experience points me also.

I hope this isn't a completely dead horse, but is this documented somewhere? I'd appreciate a shortcut to some literature if you/anyone has some already.


Metronidazole
Background from an interesting paper:
The toxic effect of the antibiotic metronidazole on aquatic organisms
The paper determines toxic concentrations of MTZ for 4 different aquatic species: Chlorella and Selenastrum (FW green single cell algae), Acartia (SW copepod), and Brachydanio (FW zebrafish)
The tests showed effect on Chlorella sp. and Selenastrum capricornutum. 72-hr EC10 of 2.03 mg/l and 19.9 mg/l respectively and 72-hr EC50 values of 12.5 mg/l and 40.4 mg/l respectively were among the results obtained. No acute lethal effect was observed on Acartia tonsa or Brachydanio rerio.
note: "EC50" means the concentration where 50% were killed/inhibited.
The proposed dose by Twilliard is 250 mg/10gal which is 6.6 mg/L. The best news is that the paper couldn't find harmful effects on the copepod at even 100mg/L.


That was something I posted elsewhere earlier. I also did an exhaustive survey of every identifiable living thing in my tank. 50+ coral nems clams, dozens of kind of inverts, down to a half dozen different species of pods, and dozens of ciliates.
Then did a follow-up after metro, and could not find a single missing thing from the pre-metro survey.
 

mandrieu

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100% this is where my dino reading + experience points me also.




Metronidazole
Background from an interesting paper:

The paper determines toxic concentrations of MTZ for 4 different aquatic species: Chlorella and Selenastrum (FW green single cell algae), Acartia (SW copepod), and Brachydanio (FW zebrafish)

note: "EC50" means the concentration where 50% were killed/inhibited.
The proposed dose by Twilliard is 250 mg/10gal which is 6.6 mg/L. The best news is that the paper couldn't find harmful effects on the copepod at even 100mg/L.


That was something I posted elsewhere earlier. I also did an exhaustive survey of every identifiable living thing in my tank. 50+ coral nems clams, dozens of kind of inverts, down to a half dozen different species of pods, and dozens of ciliates.
Then did a follow-up after metro, and could not find a single missing thing from the pre-metro survey.
I believe (correct me if I'm mistaken) one of our fellow members tested Metro for 14 (or 15) days in a row at Twillard's recommended dose and it didn't work. It does seem to somehow damage reproduction, but it doesn't kill them when they are awake or in cyst state.
 

taricha

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I believe (correct me if I'm mistaken) one of our fellow members tested Metro for 14 (or 15) days in a row at Twillard's recommended dose and it didn't work. It does seem to somehow damage reproduction, but it doesn't kill them when they are awake or in cyst state.
Right. We know it can't do 100% eradication, but some of us think it maybe can dramatically shift the tank equilibrium away from dinos and allow something else to assert dominance.
 

RMS18

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Right. We know it can't do 100% eradication, but some of us think it maybe can dramatically shift the tank equilibrium away from dinos and allow something else to assert dominance.
Anybody have the website to buy metronidazole? I know some where in these 300 pages the link is there. I can't find it.
 

mcarroll

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100% this is where my dino reading + experience points me also.

Thanks for taking the time to post that!! :)

Have you seen Table 1 from this article?
Programmed cell death in protists

Haven't posted that one to my blog (yet – it's goin' up!) but here's a few key excerpts from the table:

Table 1.

Apoptotic markers in unicellular organisms


Organism | Conditions/inducer | Apoptotic markers
Symbiodinium spp. | Heat stress [15] | Chromatin condensation; intact plasma membrane; vacuolization and vesicle formation; cytoplasmic condensation [15]
Peridinium gatunense | Decrease of dissolved CO2; H2O2[16] | DNA fragmentation, cell shrinkage; increase in reactive oxygen species; late plasma membrane permeabilization [16]
Amphidinium carterae | Darkness/light-deprivation [17] | Cell shrinkage; vacuolization [17]


Interesting to see why some of our treatments may be working.

I don't recall anyone trying systematic CO2 reduction, though I think I remember it coming up as a hypothesis or suspected solution at some point....that coulda been in the context of another thread about cyano, etc tho.

Worth looking at that CO2/H2o2 reference for sure.

Looks like the darkness treatment is probably related to Amphidinium blooms.

Anyway, it's a big table, so there might be more items of interest. :)
 

taricha

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Have you seen Table 1 from this article?
Programmed cell death in protists

Thanks for the tip! I hadn't seen that, but I had seen this one that it references - though I misread the abstract and thought it was saying darkness DIDN'T cause dramatic mass suicide in amphidinium that we're looking for. I was WRONG.
...sub-cultures from 3 day dark cultures resulted in regrowth of vegetative cells, after a short lag period. By contrast, duplicate subcultures from 8 day dark cultures produced no detectable growth ...over a three week monitoring period. The potential of dark cultures to regrow was tested twice with the same results. Over 9 days of darkness the number of bacteria in the cultures increased fourfold from 100 x 10^6 to 400 x 10^6 bacteria cells/ml, and the increased bacterial numbers (presumably supported by dinoflagellate lysis)...

I'd heard a few people swear a dark period of 9 to 14 days actually kills all the dinos, and most (me) dismissed it as crazy, because there's no reason to think it wouldn't kill all the coral symbiont too, but.....

This paper was testing coral uptake of new symbiodinium after 12 weeks of darkness caused a bleaching event.
Cell counts of Symbiodinium within Briareum colonies immediately after bleaching confirmed a decrease in symbiont density to less than 1% of the original population density. Molecular analysis detected residual populations of B178 and/or B184 [2 strains of symb.] in 27 of the 39 colonies after bleaching.
70% the briareum colonies still had living symbiodinium after 12 weeks(!) of darkness. Maybe there's a real gap here between symbiotic and some pest dinos large enough to be exploited.
 

mandrieu

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illumnae

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What's the best way to reboot a tank to prevent reinfestation? I have valuable fish that I can't afford to risk even slightly. All coral is either dead or expendable.

Thanks
 

Paullawr

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Thanks for taking the time to post that!! :)

Have you seen Table 1 from this article?
Programmed cell death in protists

Haven't posted that one to my blog (yet – it's goin' up!) but here's a few key excerpts from the table:

Table 1.

Apoptotic markers in unicellular organisms


Organism | Conditions/inducer | Apoptotic markers
Symbiodinium spp. | Heat stress [15] | Chromatin condensation; intact plasma membrane; vacuolization and vesicle formation; cytoplasmic condensation [15]
Peridinium gatunense | Decrease of dissolved CO2; H2O2[16] | DNA fragmentation, cell shrinkage; increase in reactive oxygen species; late plasma membrane permeabilization [16]
Amphidinium carterae | Darkness/light-deprivation [17] | Cell shrinkage; vacuolization [17]


Interesting to see why some of our treatments may be working.

I don't recall anyone trying systematic CO2 reduction, though I think I remember it coming up as a hypothesis or suspected solution at some point....that coulda been in the context of another thread about cyano, etc tho.

Worth looking at that CO2/H2o2 reference for sure.

Looks like the darkness treatment is probably related to Amphidinium blooms.

Anyway, it's a big table, so there might be more items of interest. :)

Well i was running a very high pH which as you know drives out co2. Add to that there is only so much oxygen saturation a tank will allow.
 

wyattray

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I started my battle to see how much I can reduce dino.

Im currently Treating Fluc and vibrant during this process.

GFO and Carbon are off.
Skimmer is running but with no collection cup low water level, this is pulling air thru a CO2 Scrubber. Im trying my best to keep my ph 8.2-8.5, Im dosing ATO at night and it seems to be somewhat steady and dripping kalk when I get home to bring it to 8.4.
My 1 week old Biopellet reactor is off also its not established enough to do anything beneficial, I will be turning this back on soon.
I am removing about a cup of sand a day and discarding, I am also removing any snails dead or alive that are in the sand bed, there has been massive snail deaths in the past month which I am assuming are related to the dino.
I am also siphoning all the other sand every day thru a 100 micron sock and pushing it back in the tank. The sock was dirty yesterday but I did notice some debris at the bottom of the bucked that made it thru the sock but didn't get pumped in, I will analysis this under a microscope today and report back. Curious thing because if your able to move the water out containing the dino and them settle that quick together, (it was like 3 minutes) might be a faster way to export them.

I have a bunch of info and theory's on some of the problem which im going to gather more details on before I make claims on here.

I need to start testing ALK Daily starting today, im fine with anything between 8-12.
 

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