Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!

pboutin

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 9, 2014
Messages
222
Reaction score
128
Location
Simsbury CT
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I already have tank under control. Vibrant (salt water version as supposed to be stronger than reef) arrived weds.

One dose weds within 20 minutes water was visibly clearing. Two hours later I could see back of tank.
Following morning some diatoms and Dino's. Added prodibo full treatment yesterday night and this morning last planned dose of vibrant.

Tank is almost.back to how it was.

@Paullawr have you tried Vibrant for Dino treatment as the product states it can cure?
 

mcarroll

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 8, 2012
Messages
13,802
Reaction score
7,971
Location
Virginia
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
If you read my earlier rant I'd added some new sand and replaced rock.

Muddy on the details... ;) <insert groan here>

But no really....what sand did you add? What kind, what brand, etc?

I know from reading that diatoms are exceptional bloomers, and that they're limited at least by Si when we see our initial diatom blooms in a new tank setup.

Taken at face value, your experience makes me think new tank-diatom blooms may actually be limited by N and/or P....either in addition to or instead of Si. (And maybe, we hope, limited by other competitors and predators too.)

Your tank, not being brand new, was apparently heavy with nutrients, including Si, which supported a phenomenal bloom.)

I kinda like the N-limitation theory since it sort of fits nicely with a cyano bloom (with N-fixing capability) that seems to follow our diatom blooms in many instances. But N-limitation can just as easily be accompanied by P-limitation which can bring it's own wrinkles.

The water in the tank now is litterally crystal. Just two days ago it was like muddy water.

That's the effect I would hope for under controlled circumstances.

Up until that point both a low grade carbon in reactor plus rox 0.8 passive and loads of floss stuffed in chamber along with skimmer just couldn't stop it.

I think I would have taken these things offline if possible.

Certainly I'd want the bloom to complete, I wouldn't be trying to stop it. :)
 

Paullawr

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
1,318
Reaction score
939
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Muddy on the details... ;) <insert groan here>

But no really....what sand did you add? What kind, what brand, etc?

I know from reading that diatoms are exceptional bloomers, and that they're limited at least by Si when we see our initial diatom blooms in a new tank setup.

Taken at face value, your experience makes me think new tank-diatom blooms may actually be limited by N and/or P....either in addition to or instead of Si. (And maybe, we hope, limited by other competitors and predators too.)

Your tank, not being brand new, was apparently heavy with nutrients, including Si, which supported a phenomenal bloom.)

I kinda like the N-limitation theory since it sort of fits nicely with a cyano bloom (with N-fixing capability) that seems to follow our diatom blooms in many instances. But N-limitation can just as easily be accompanied by P-limitation which can bring it's own wrinkles.



That's the effect I would hope for under controlled circumstances.



I think I would have taken these things offline if possible.

Certainly I'd want the bloom to complete, I wouldn't be trying to stop it. :)

Sand was aquaforest. So not a cheap grade. Used it from the start. Though I had a 5 month cycle time.

As I've said before. I don't agree with rushing things. 5 months gave the dry and cultured synthetic rock time to cure.
It allowed me to grow out mini bristle stars, amiphods, copepod's etc., Made sure I'd got water parameters bang on.

See you think I'm crazy and unorthodox. Quite the opposite my friend. I'm one of the most methodical on this website.

At the same time I won't cut my nose off to spite my face.

Treatments for the latter part of the last couple of centuries have been found by mistake or trial and error.

Keep an open mind. Natural balance isnt the be all and end all.
If it were....there would never be such a thing as a dinoflagellates or bloom in the natural environment.
Sadly there is.
Man made only goes so far. They have been reported for a long time.

Si is both their limitation and reason for being here.

Nutrients I was adding but only just got N 5pmm P not started dosing yet.


As for bloom and allowing to complete. I agree and disagree.

My intention was to let it replace itself. That was when the rocks and sand and glass were covered.

When the water turned to the colour of black tea along with encrusting of diatoms on all surfaces. I had a problem.

I just added $300 of coral frags from a known seller. There is a limit to my patience.

I waited the bloom of biblical proportions for 5 days.

It didn't clear. From experience it can take several weeks to deplete Si.

Would You wait out a bloom (5 weeks or so??) At the risk of inhabitants.

This is where you (and many others on here) will disagree with me.

I have respect for the invertebrates in place in a tank. Putting them through blooms is not ok. At least extended.

Neither is it on my wallet.

Perhaps I shouldn't of changed the rock or sand.
But that happens in this hobby.

Fact is what would you or anyone else here ready to challenge me as an acceptable period of time to allow a major algae outbreak to consume a tank before litterally killing itself.

1,2,5,10 weeks? New tank sure. Tank with fish etc. No that's not fine.

Vibrant offered a fix.

I took that fix, applied it and now have a condition that is not raising concerns with animal cruelty.

It's the same as metroplex. You said to me offline we shouldn't use such things.
Protists may become resistant.
It doesn't work.

Yes they become resistant. No don't condone its use.

It does work to 21 days.

It's enough time to formulate a plan.

It might help @Jolanta or anyone else.

Don't knock new science in favour of equilibrium... They both work but both need each other from time to time.

If we both had faults. I'd be and issue because I want to try harmful or odd chemicals. You because you don't.

Peace.
 

Paullawr

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
1,318
Reaction score
939
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
@Paullawr have you tried Vibrant for Dino treatment as the product states it can cure?
Double edged sword this. It was the other reason I bought it.

Basically my story is an odd one.

I've gone from a very high nutrient tank (but with very successful soft corals) to a balanced tank (good mixed reef) to a ULNS tank.
They all had bloody Dino's.

This is why I cannot accept NP nonsense. Sorry. Just can't.

If it were that simple anyone new to the hobby wouldn't have dinoflagellates.


@Paullawr have you tried Vibrant for Dino treatment as the product states it can cure?
It's supposed to be a cure but like other cures is not conclusive.

The original thread owner @twillard did tests on vibrant. It forced his strain in to en-cysting state.

Others have found success but the. How frequently do they dose. Other factors etc.
Will their tanks be free next year as spring commences.
 

mcarroll

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 8, 2012
Messages
13,802
Reaction score
7,971
Location
Virginia
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Um...I was talking about a hypothetical experiment...like I mentioned, bloom vs bloom with an interest of course toward what/if any stability came after it.

Your experience was interesting in terms of experimentation – but I agree that it's a bummer that happened in a tank with real livestock! :(

That was a full-on harmful algae bloom (HAB) just like in the Bible and on TV, only in aquarium-scale.
 

Paullawr

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
1,318
Reaction score
939
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Um...I was talking about a hypothetical experiment...like I mentioned, bloom vs bloom with an interest of course toward what/if any stability came after it.

Your experience was interesting in terms of experimentation – but I agree that it's a bummer that happened in a tank with real livestock! :(

That was a full-on harmful algae bloom (HAB) just like in the Bible and on TV, only in aquarium-scale.

No worries. Thought you were implying I ride it out :eek:

Reefflowers was the sand I used r eeflowers- pearl-sand-1mm-7kg
 
Last edited:

mandrieu

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 9, 2017
Messages
172
Reaction score
106
Location
Maryland
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Sand was aquaforest. So not a cheap grade. Used it from the start. Though I had a 5 month cycle time.

As I've said before. I don't agree with rushing things. 5 months gave the dry and cultured synthetic rock time to cure.
It allowed me to grow out mini bristle stars, amiphods, copepod's etc., Made sure I'd got water parameters bang on.

See you think I'm crazy and unorthodox. Quite the opposite my friend. I'm one of the most methodical on this website.

At the same time I won't cut my nose off to spite my face.

Treatments for the latter part of the last couple of centuries have been found by mistake or trial and error.

Keep an open mind. Natural balance isnt the be all and end all.
If it were....there would never be such a thing as a dinoflagellates or bloom in the natural environment.
Sadly there is.
Man made only goes so far. They have been reported for a long time.

Si is both their limitation and reason for being here.

Nutrients I was adding but only just got N 5pmm P not started dosing yet.


As for bloom and allowing to complete. I agree and disagree.

My intention was to let it replace itself. That was when the rocks and sand and glass were covered.

When the water turned to the colour of black tea along with encrusting of diatoms on all surfaces. I had a problem.

I just added $300 of coral frags from a known seller. There is a limit to my patience.

I waited the bloom of biblical proportions for 5 days.

It didn't clear. From experience it can take several weeks to deplete Si.

Would You wait out a bloom (5 weeks or so??) At the risk of inhabitants.

This is where you (and many others on here) will disagree with me.

I have respect for the invertebrates in place in a tank. Putting them through blooms is not ok. At least extended.

Neither is it on my wallet.

Perhaps I shouldn't of changed the rock or sand.
But that happens in this hobby.

Fact is what would you or anyone else here ready to challenge me as an acceptable period of time to allow a major algae outbreak to consume a tank before litterally killing itself.

1,2,5,10 weeks? New tank sure. Tank with fish etc. No that's not fine.

Vibrant offered a fix.

I took that fix, applied it and now have a condition that is not raising concerns with animal cruelty.

It's the same as metroplex. You said to me offline we shouldn't use such things.
Protists may become resistant.
It doesn't work.

Yes they become resistant. No don't condone its use.

It does work to 21 days.

It's enough time to formulate a plan.

It might help @Jolanta or anyone else.

Don't knock new science in favour of equilibrium... They both work but both need each other from time to time.

If we both had faults. I'd be and issue because I want to try harmful or odd chemicals. You because you don't.

Peace.
Amen. Good sstuff
 

nova65ss

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
1,489
Reaction score
348
Location
Raleigh
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Haven't been keeping up with this thread for a few months so not sure how things are progressing. Wanted to share my observation after giving in and tearing down my tank to Dino's.

I battled them in my frag tank for 2 years trying everything metro peroxide ulns none of it worked.

I gave in and decided to move all of my corals to an 18g with hang on back filter and a Vega I had laying around. I dipped everything in peroxide 1st and them revive. Used new sand and made a new frag rack. My 4 fish I just acclimated and transferred.

What I don't understand is how the new hospital tank avoided getting the Dino's. I was sure as could be after a bit of time they would pop up so far 6 ish months later tank is clean as a whistle. How did they survive and not make it over? I bleached the tank and I have been cycling it for about 3 months so far so good. Seems like this may be an easy safe solution for someone else to try. I say easy I know it is a bit of work but easy on the animals.


Any thoughts?
 

Paullawr

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
1,318
Reaction score
939
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Difficult to answer.

Maybe just maybe you got them all with the dip.

Possibly the frag setup built up enough critters to munch on them before they reached an epidemic.

Something in the frag tank that doesn't agree with them ?

Maybe some random algae growing which they are not fond of.

Then again perhaps they are there just not big numbers or bloomed (which is my case).

If you want some though just shout. We could do a pick and mix. Forget frag swap. Dino dealing is far better. They are hardy, interesting, come loaded with toxins, produce free air...
:O
 

Jolanta

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 10, 2017
Messages
426
Reaction score
386
Location
Salamanca, MEXICO
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
My diatom earth arrived :)
68b81878d9a5aaa47371bb8436338f16.jpg

So I will try my filter today for the firsth time :)
One question for you guys, you think dinos will kill nasarrius snails? I know they eat uneaten food and dont eat algea, it would be save to buy a few ?
 

Paullawr

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
1,318
Reaction score
939
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Use it use it use it!!!

Them snails chased my fish until they jumped out of tank. I lost five fish. Returned snails to lfs whom I'm sure didn't believe me...until I went in the next time and they told me the same thing had happened to them. Put the snails in with the fish and the fish exited pronto.
Only occurred at night. I actually caught them in the act. And my god did they move.

A friend said they might of been a type of predatory whelk.

Either that or just like chasing fish.
 

Paullawr

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
1,318
Reaction score
939
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I think my case was rare though so don't let that put you off. Just nature sometimes.

They should be ok and help turn sand.
 

pboutin

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 9, 2014
Messages
222
Reaction score
128
Location
Simsbury CT
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Haven't been keeping up with this thread for a few months so not sure how things are progressing. Wanted to share my observation after giving in and tearing down my tank to Dino's.

I battled them in my frag tank for 2 years trying everything metro peroxide ulns none of it worked.

I gave in and decided to move all of my corals to an 18g with hang on back filter and a Vega I had laying around. I dipped everything in peroxide 1st and them revive. Used new sand and made a new frag rack. My 4 fish I just acclimated and transferred.

What I don't understand is how the new hospital tank avoided getting the Dino's. I was sure as could be after a bit of time they would pop up so far 6 ish months later tank is clean as a whistle. How did they survive and not make it over? I bleached the tank and I have been cycling it for about 3 months so far so good. Seems like this may be an easy safe solution for someone else to try. I say easy I know it is a bit of work but easy on the animals.


Any thoughts?

My theory and correct me if I'm wrong here but I set up a frag tank from my DT water to get the biofilter going. There is no sign of Dino's in that tank. In my case I'm sure it's a case of water quality. My filtering is less than par on the frag tank. Could be the elevated N and P in there keeping the Dino's at bay. I also noticed lots of pods on the glass like a whole lot. I don't need to clean the glass on that tank.

So maybe you are seeing the same thing? Higher N and P in your frag tank?
 

Jolanta

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 10, 2017
Messages
426
Reaction score
386
Location
Salamanca, MEXICO
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
My theory and correct me if I'm wrong here but I set up a frag tank from my DT water to get the biofilter going. There is no sign of Dino's in that tank. In my case I'm sure it's a case of water quality. My filtering is less than par on the frag tank. Could be the elevated N and P in there keeping the Dino's at bay. I also noticed lots of pods on the glass like a whole lot. I don't need to clean the glass on that tank.

So maybe you are seeing the same thing? Higher N and P in your frag tank?
Thats what Im observing now with my tank. I didnt clean the front glass since the blackout two weeks ago but when my lights go on I see hundreds of baby copepods in the glass, I think they are eating the algae. Im glad there were still some alive in the tank and menage to reproduce now :) I have not seen copepods for a long time in my tank.
 

mcarroll

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 8, 2012
Messages
13,802
Reaction score
7,971
Location
Virginia
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Could be the elevated N and P in there keeping the Dino's at bay.

Exaclty. The N and P is keeping all their competitors fed and happy AND preventing the dino's from going on a starvation-attack! :)

Thats what Im observing now with my tank. I didnt clean the front glass since the blackout two weeks ago but when my lights go on I see hundreds of baby copepods in the glass, I think they are eating the algae. Im glad there were still some alive in the tank and menage to reproduce now :) I have not seen copepods for a long time in my tank.

Their presence is a great, great sign!!! :) :) :) :)
 

bh750

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 17, 2016
Messages
414
Reaction score
261
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
My diatom earth arrived :)
68b81878d9a5aaa47371bb8436338f16.jpg

So I will try my filter today for the firsth time :)
One question for you guys, you think dinos will kill nasarrius snails? I know they eat uneaten food and dont eat algea, it would be save to buy a few ?

Awesome. Can't wait to hear about the progress. PS-is that snow in the background?
 

bh750

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 17, 2016
Messages
414
Reaction score
261
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Use it use it use it!!!

Them snails chased my fish until they jumped out of tank. I lost five fish. Returned snails to lfs whom I'm sure didn't believe me...until I went in the next time and they told me the same thing had happened to them. Put the snails in with the fish and the fish exited pronto.
Only occurred at night. I actually caught them in the act. And my god did they move.

A friend said they might of been a type of predatory whelk.

Either that or just like chasing fish.

Yea that's crazy. You must've had something else. When I had nassarius they always stayed under the sand. As soon as food was put into the tank they'd pop up their little sniffer like a periscope and the come all the way out looking for food.
 

pboutin

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 9, 2014
Messages
222
Reaction score
128
Location
Simsbury CT
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Here's my plan of attack. Let me know what you guys think.

System as it stands:
160 total volume
40gal of that is a refuge which has algae in decline.
I have a bio-reactor which was the cause of this mess. I don't plan on taking it offline but may remove some of the media. I want to keep low nutrients but not 0.

I get my phosphate test kit and phosphorus in today, so I'll start there take a baseline reeding and begin dosing to gradually bring up my P04 to a readable amount maybe .5 or 1.

Monday I get my N03 test kit and later this week my KN03 powder and can begin dosing that as well. Same plan go slow to get a reading.

I hope to get the algae growing again.

I don't want to do a black out if I don't have to. I want to test out the effectiveness of just dosing and raising my nutrients.
 

Mastering the art of locking and unlocking water pathways: What type of valves do you have on your aquarium plumbing?

  • Ball valves.

    Votes: 71 53.0%
  • Gate valves.

    Votes: 68 50.7%
  • Check valves.

    Votes: 34 25.4%
  • None.

    Votes: 30 22.4%
  • Other.

    Votes: 9 6.7%

New Posts

Back
Top