Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!

mandrieu

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Yesterday I received in the mail my Nitrate pro test kit and my Seed Ranch order of KN03. I took a baseline reading for Nitrates and as suspected was at 0. I mixed a solution of KN03 of 12.34 grams of KN03 and filled the container to 500 ml with RODI water. This will give my tank of 160 gal 0.25 ppm of Nitrate with a dose of 10 ml. I'm no scientist so I got this calculation from https://rotalabutterfly.com/nutrient-calculator.php If you think this is off please let me know. I opted to stick to the ppm that the test kit tests at (not that this makes much of a difference but .25 is a good number to go with). My dosing is again in the refugium after flow turned off and water level stable.

IMG_5400.JPG IMG_5399.JPG

For the curious, here are the compound breakdowns from the calculations:
Mix 12.34 grams of KNO3 to 500mL RODI. Adding 10mL of this mix to 160 gal aquarium to yield:
Element ppm/degree
NO3 0.25
N 0.06
K 0.16

Dose 40 ml of Flourish Phosphorus to 160 gal aquarium adds:
Element ppm/degree
K2O 0.13
K 0.11
P2O5 0.2
P 0.09
PO4 0.26

So considering that my initial dose was only 30 ml, that would have raised my PO4 to 0.2. Something is consuming it!

Side note: I decided for the sake of research I will not manually clean, scrub or blow off the Dinos from the rocks. This way I can easily observe rise or decline of visible dinos. Since my tank is so new and so clean the dinos are not brown but more translucent brown/yellow snot like. I have little to no dinos on the sand or in shaded areas of the tank. I have not observed as much dion growth in my refugium it seems to be most prevalent in my display tank. Also I'm not running my skimmer or GFO and Carbon. Nor am I cleaning my glass. I only have my bio-reactor running keeping my nutrients too low to measure.

Day 1 - continued
N03 measured at 0
Mixed 500 ml solution of KN03 to 10 ml = 0.25 ppm of N03 per 160 gal
Dosed 10 ml of KN03
Dosed 40 ml of P2O5
I observed some pods moving around in the algae were I couldn't find them before.

Day 2
N03 measured at 0
P04 measured at 0
Observations:
Dinos don't seem to be affected by the spike of Nitrates overnight (I'll take some pictures so I can compare better)
My corals looked a bit upset by the swing
My fish seem unaffected
The algae looks about the same (hard to tell if its greening up) I'll take some pictures so I can compare better

After my initial results it seems I need to test to see how fast the uptake is. Depending on that result I may have to dose more often throughout the day.
Yeah, it may take some time to get those numbers up. In my case I had to dose NO3 (which was zero) a bit just for a couple of days, then suddenly NO3 went sky high to >25 ppm and stayed there. With phosphates though, I had zero, and after more than 2 weeks of dosing, I still can't get readings. I get a random read of 0.02/0.03 once every few days but then it goes back to zero right away (in a matter of hours!). Go figure. Maybe I'll have to finally throw a hot dog or a big mac in my tank and see how it likes it! Maybe I'll get some readings that way - LOL
 

pboutin

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I actually plan or planned do it Taricha. I just need a couple of weeks to get my params in check. I say planned as vibrant might actually be ridding the Dino's....
Will see.
How's the Vibrant treatment working out?
 

mcarroll

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No need...that's chrysophyes for sure. :)

You can imagine them as a blend of a dino and a diatom.

I'd suggest taking skipping the rest of this dino thread and either starting your own tank thread, finding a chrysophyte thread or using the potassium nitrate thread:

A generous R2R member by the tag @morpheas created a sweet KNO3 calculator that's a little buried in the thread, but you can start reading about here (there's an excel version and a Google Docs version linked later in the thread):

Yup it is a page back. Here is the link.

With that you will be able to plan your dilution/dosing and expected increase pretty well.
Thankfully he also wrote a really nice article for my blog as well:
A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)

Look out for a PM as well....
 

pboutin

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No need...that's chrysophyes for sure. :)

You can imagine them as a blend of a dino and a diatom.

I'd suggest taking skipping the rest of this dino thread and either starting your own tank thread, finding a chrysophyte thread or using the potassium nitrate thread:

A generous R2R member by the tag @morpheas created a sweet KNO3 calculator that's a little buried in the thread, but you can start reading about here (there's an excel version and a Google Docs version linked later in the thread):



Thankfully he also wrote a really nice article for my blog as well:
A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)

Look out for a PM as well....
For those following me on this here is my new thread https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chrysophytes-battle.305920/
 

Paullawr

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How's the Vibrant treatment working out?
It did what it said on the bottle. Sorted the diatom bloom out.

Will see how my pet patch is doing probably the weekend. I need to be home during day to see if they are doing anything.
 

Paullawr

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I didnt dosed yet Mcarroll, the day my phosphate aditive arrived I checked the phosphate and as my tank looked better and the test had a good result I decided to wait. My phosphate levels always rise after the blackout and then when my dinos return slowly they go down once again, so now my plan is to add it when I see it under 0.05.
Im just loosing hope once again :( The dinos always fools me after the blackout, couse it looks so good, I think Im winning and as the days pass with lights on I know it was temporaly and they will win again.
Don't lose heart. This was always expected to happen.
Metro was only to hold them back enough to keep tank mostly clear whilst filter arrived.

You could always do another 14 day dose whilst running filter if things get bad.

Could you set diatom filter to run on a timer at night.

Petty you cannot run all night.

How about run it for an hour then off for 30 minutes to cool. Hell direct a fan at it. Then back on for hour.

Sorry that's probably a silly idea....

Ideally you want it going when free swimming.

You may never get rid of them fully with these methods but you might be able to keep them in check.

Still keep at it.
 

Jolanta

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Don't lose heart. This was always expected to happen.
Metro was only to hold them back enough to keep tank mostly clear whilst filter arrived.

You could always do another 14 day dose whilst running filter if things get bad.

Could you set diatom filter to run on a timer at night.

Petty you cannot run all night.

How about run it for an hour then off for 30 minutes to cool. Hell direct a fan at it. Then back on for hour.

Sorry that's probably a silly idea....

Ideally you want it going when free swimming.

You may never get rid of them fully with these methods but you might be able to keep them in check.

Still keep at it.
Its not possible to run it on timer couse when you turn it off and then on all the diatom earth powder will go into your tank, you need to make some dificult procedure to make it start and ones you turn it off you need to start the procedure once again :) So my only option is to use it everyday and suck what I can with it, there is really only few strings but Im scared it will go so bad like before the blackout :(
 

celebrityovernight

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Has anyone had luck with doubling or tripling the dosage for peroxide? I noticed that when I was dosing 1ml per 10gal, it had 0 effect, but when I upped it to 2-3ml per gallon 2-3 times daily. It really reduced the dinos.
 

Paullawr

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Well hopefully with routine maintenance of tank and filter you can keep it in check.
 

Paullawr

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Has anyone had luck with doubling or tripling the dosage for peroxide? I noticed that when I was dosing 1ml per 10gal, it had 0 effect, but when I upped it to 2-3ml per gallon 2-3 times daily. It really reduced the dinos.
I found it started to work then seemed to be less and less effective as time went on.

At one point I dosed around half a percent of the total tank volume.

Whether they had become more resistant or staying in a cyst for longer before then re-emerging I don't know.

The problem with h202 is that it oxides anything it comes in contact with. It the only carbon source was Dino's would be a lot more effective.

One idea I had toyed with was using ozone past 550mv/600mv. I never did though (probably a good thing).

Still in an empty tank environment.ie if planning a reboot then it would be interesting to hear if that kills them off. Technically it should be lethal.
 

celebrityovernight

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I found it started to work then seemed to be less and less effective as time went on.

At one point I dosed around half a percent of the total tank volume.

Whether they had become more resistant or staying in a cyst for longer before then re-emerging I don't know.

The problem with h202 is that it oxides anything it comes in contact with. It the only carbon source was Dino's would be a lot more effective.

One idea I had toyed with was using ozone past 550mv/600mv. I never did though (probably a good thing).

Still in an empty tank environment.ie if planning a reboot then it would be interesting to hear if that kills them off. Technically it should be lethal.
Man.... I hope mine doesn't come back [emoji27] .... it's been 2 days since I've seen any signs. Before I was heavily infested.
 

Paullawr

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Man.... I hope mine doesn't come back [emoji27] .... it's been 2 days since I've seen any signs. Before I was heavily infested.
Always hope.

I found a small patch on glass oddly enough that each time I scraped it clear it would reform a few hours later. It was white as if dead - but wasn't. Following a few days of this it went full on and retook over.
 

bevo5

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Well guys - I have some findings to offer up that aren't great.

I recently decided to take my tank down and move over to Malawi Cichlids. I didn't have a huge dinos issue, but I verified some pockets of algae were dinos with my microscope.

Well - as part of my take down process, I dumped a half bottle of bleach in my tank (200g system). First of all - crazy apocalypse of bristle worms I didn't know I had. I removed everything else but the sand (snails etc), but I guess these guys were just chilling. Not anymore.

The unfortunate part - the next day I ran my light cycle the same and boom - same small patches of dinos.

Very tough little suckers.
 

mandrieu

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Has anyone had luck with doubling or tripling the dosage for peroxide? I noticed that when I was dosing 1ml per 10gal, it had 0 effect, but when I upped it to 2-3ml per gallon 2-3 times daily. It really reduced the dinos.
Yeah, I tried. No luck. It reduced them initially but never killed them. There's a point where you kill quite a bit of good bacteria too, so you want to be careful about how far you go
 

mandrieu

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Well guys - I have some findings to offer up that aren't great.

I recently decided to take my tank down and move over to Malawi Cichlids. I didn't have a huge dinos issue, but I verified some pockets of algae were dinos with my microscope.

Well - as part of my take down process, I dumped a half bottle of bleach in my tank (200g system). First of all - crazy apocalypse of bristle worms I didn't know I had. I removed everything else but the sand (snails etc), but I guess these guys were just chilling. Not anymore.

The unfortunate part - the next day I ran my light cycle the same and boom - same small patches of dinos.

Very tough little suckers.
Same thing happened to me. Not in days, but a few months later they were back. And here I am...
 

ajm83

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It took a year but they're gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is hope guys. Don't give in to the little blighters. I very nearly chucked in the towel so many times.

Looking back through my notes, I don't think I can give any useful advice unfortunately. It's been all over the shop TBH.

However I would say that Dino X has worked several times to completely knock them back. Likewise blackouts. In the last few weeks it's been a combination of these things plus ensuring phosphate was over 0 and nitrate over 1.

I have no doubt they will be back at some point down the line, but at least I know they can be tackled now.

I believe I introduced my first batch on a frag plug. EVERYTHING going into my tank gets quarantined now.
 

puffy127

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It took a year but they're gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is hope guys. Don't give in to the little blighters. I very nearly chucked in the towel so many times.

Looking back through my notes, I don't think I can give any useful advice unfortunately. It's been all over the shop TBH.

However I would say that Dino X has worked several times to completely knock them back. Likewise blackouts. In the last few weeks it's been a combination of these things plus ensuring phosphate was over 0 and nitrate over 1.

I have no doubt they will be back at some point down the line, but at least I know they can be tackled now.

I believe I introduced my first batch on a frag plug. EVERYTHING going into my tank gets quarantined now.
So how will you qt to prevent introduction of dinos?
 

rockskimmerflow

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Has anyone had luck with doubling or tripling the dosage for peroxide? I noticed that when I was dosing 1ml per 10gal, it had 0 effect, but when I upped it to 2-3ml per gallon 2-3 times daily. It really reduced the dinos.
Might work depending on your species. I've only dealt with O. ovata and I can confirm that method didn't work on them for me. And I went way overboard on the peroxide dosage. When I was first figuring out how to beat them I tested the hydrogen peroxide method. I ramped up dosages with no success and finally tried 8ml/gal in one shot. All I did was RTN a couple colonies in the tank. Dino barely took a hit for 2 days before bouncing right back.
 
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