Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!

[Jolanta]

Jolanta, you can probably use a little less powder, maybe 2 cups as it looks a little thick in your picture. It won't hurt to use more but it will clog faster and may cause your motor to get hotter as it is harder to push water through it. You can also use that powder for a couple of days as long as you start it correctly. I wouldn't leave it in the pump for more than a day because all that stuff you pulled out will start in rot in there.
You can feel good knowing you are not adding or removing any chemicals to your tank as I feel that is "never" the right thing to do. Seawater has enough chemicals in it and anything else you add will just screw it up and cause side effects. A diatom filter goes to the root of the problem and removes it along with all the nutrients that the dino's absorbed.
I need to use my filter soon as I don't remember using it for over a year.
Put a fan on yours if you can to cool it off.

Thank you, I used three cups of powder, I wasnt sure how much to use really, when it clogs it wont let water pass and the flow will be slower? When I used it it never got slower but the filter did got really hot. I will use it once again tomorrow so maybe I will try with two cups this time. I prefered to back flush all the used powder couse I was scared to reintroduce some dinos back to the tank.

 

[Paul B]

You just need enough powder to coat the bag. A little goes a long way and that powder is not that cheap unless you get it from a swimming pool company

 

[bh750]

A positive update on my progress...

A refresher: I'm trying to manually keep nitrates NO3 and Phosphates PO4 up to certain levels as I deal with Dinos (Amph). I am pretty certain the cause in my tank is related to the imbalance as So many have stated here. Always ran a nutrient deficient system.

So...using a Hanna Low Range Phosphate Checker with new reagents and a new Nyos Nitrate test kit a week ago I began testing daily when Dinos were still progressing. First on my sand and then onto my rocks.

Initial tests showed nitrate between 5-12 ppm. I estimated right in the middle so say 7-9ppm. A good place. As always Phosphate came up as 0.00. I don't have any noticeable GHA growing in my tank. And I put my ATS back online. I have ~290 gallon system.

I have Stump Remover to dose NO3 and Seachem Flourish Phosphorus to dose PO4.

So on day one I didn't dose Stump. I did dose 10ml of Phosphorus. My plan as so many have guided me is to take it slow and steady. My goal isn't just to knock back Dinos but to get my tank back into balance. Allow the balance to come back properly.

I have to say bc I've been battling Dinos on and off for about 5 years I've been starting at them for such a long time I can just tell when they're growing or receding. And I'm pretty sure the next day after dosing 10ml I noticed a difference. The Dinos did not spread and they looked a little different. Changed color in some areas and seems to have some tiny holes in their mat.

So I've been dosing Phosphorus to bring up PO4 for 7 days now. My NO3 did drop a little (as expected) to about 5ppm which is still fine with me. Only one day did I get any PO4 reading from my Hanna Checker. Rest of the days it's been at 0.00.

In the sprit of keeping it slow one day I dropped the dosage to 5ml. Again using the naked eye as my only measure I didn't see any change and looked like they gained a little ground.

In the end after 7 days of dosing I can happily say that my Dinos are definitely receding!!! This I know for sure. Large patches have appeared in the mat on the sand. And receding altogether from the rocks.

I will continue to test and dose every day and take notes and pictures.

Oh and I forgot to mention I've added more Refugium space and a shipment of phyto and tons of copepods will be coming next week!

Woo hoooooo!

 

[Jolanta]

A positive update on my progress...

A refresher: I'm trying to manually keep nitrates NO3 and Phosphates PO4 up to certain levels as I deal with Dinos (Amph). I am pretty certain the cause in my tank is related to the imbalance as So many have stated here. Always ran a nutrient deficient system.

So...using a Hanna Low Range Phosphate Checker with new reagents and a new Nyos Nitrate test kit a week ago I began testing daily when Dinos were still progressing. First on my sand and then onto my rocks.

Initial tests showed nitrate between 5-12 ppm. I estimated right in the middle so say 7-9ppm. A good place. As always Phosphate came up as 0.00. I don't have any noticeable GHA growing in my tank. And I put my ATS back online. I have ~290 gallon system.

I have Stump Remover to dose NO3 and Seachem Flourish Phosphorus to dose PO4.

So on day one I didn't dose Stump. I did dose 10ml of Phosphorus. My plan as so many have guided me is to take it slow and steady. My goal isn't just to knock back Dinos but to get my tank back into balance. Allow the balance to come back properly.

I have to say bc I've been battling Dinos on and off for about 5 years I've been starting at them for such a long time I can just tell when they're growing or receding. And I'm pretty sure the next day after dosing 10ml I noticed a difference. The Dinos did not spread and they looked a little different. Changed color in some areas and seems to have some tiny holes in their mat.

So I've been dosing Phosphorus to bring up PO4 for 7 days now. My NO3 did drop a little (as expected) to about 5ppm which is still fine with me. Only one day did I get any PO4 reading from my Hanna Checker. Rest of the days it's been at 0.00.

In the sprit of keeping it slow one day I dropped the dosage to 5ml. Again using the naked eye as my only measure I didn't see any change and looked like they gained a little ground.

In the end after 7 days of dosing I can happily say that my Dinos are definitely receding!!! This I know for sure. Large patches have appeared in the mat on the sand. And receding altogether from the rocks.

I will continue to test and dose every day and take notes and pictures.

Oh and I forgot to mention I've added more Refugium space and a shipment of phyto and tons of copepods will be coming next week!

Woo hoooooo!

Im so happy for you! Keep us updated and dont forget about us once you are dino free Im making some progress too I didnt add any phosphate yet couse they stay steady at 0.05 about a week now Im using my diatom filter once again today ans I used only 2 cups of powder this time and my method to suck up dinos is I take the inlet hose and suck all visible patches of ciano and dinos and then whit the outlet hose I blow all the sand and rock, then let things settle and repit the proces and I only did it two times and my tank looks like after the blackout I love this filter, I hope they will reduce every time I use it and wont reproduce no more. Thats how the bag looks like after siphoning all my rocks

 

[Pmj]

So I'm dealing with dinos and it's killing/irritating corals. It's the brown stingy junk on top of rocks & corals. Come back in an hour or two after blowing off. Luckily most SPS are not touched, but I have two gorgonians that are covered even blowing them off twice a day. Some LPS and a birdsnest are next on the list of being messed with. I had cyano a few months ago and H202 helped kill it. I do not have zero nutrients, I have consistently 20+ nitrates via Salifert. PO4 is not high but not zero either (Hanna results are hard for me to get a consistent result but there's always some). I thought Dinos was mainly a problem for low nutrient tanks? This is my first time dealing with it.

I haven't read the whole thread but is there a consensus on methods to attempt? I started H202 again a few days ago, and also have Vibrant I tried starting a week ago. They do not seem to have any effect at all. My next step was I guess a blackout and putting my filter sock back on.

 

[mcarroll]

@Pmj

Can you specify what your PO4 tests have shown?

Very low PO4 accompanied by high levels of NO3 can have the same or similar effect. It's also possible that a very low reading is within the error rate of your device and could actually represent zero.

So having >.03 ppm of PO4 or even around .05 would be my suggestion going forward. Use KNO3 and PO4 supplements as-needed to assure neither nutrient "runs out". Ultimately, normal feeding should keep the nutrients in the tank balanced with a surplus of PO4....and hopefully some residual NO3 as well.

Also, if you're carbon dosing in any form, stop doing that....or cut back and stop over a week or more if you're dosing a lot and don't want to do anything else drastic. Carbon dosing tends to slant a system's phytoplankton balance toward the bad guys.

If you want to do something in addition to the balanced nutrient situation you'll be creating, then you can set up any of the following:

• a UV filter
• diatom filter
• a vigorous scrubbing and siphoning routine
• (any I'm forgetting?)

Whether you read this whole 4100 post thread or not (not), I would also consider reviewing

• Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?
• Potassium nitrate (Spectracide stump remover) dosing steps

...as well as the Algae and Nutrients sections on my blog and the article @morpheas wrote for it here:

• A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)

I would stop nuking your tank as soon as possible.

 

[Pmj]

Ok, that would make sense. I've been carbon dosing forever but increased it & ran some GFO before this started. Again I have always had nitrates around the 25 (if not higher) on the Salifert kit. Even with carbon dosing & siporax they have never been undetectable like some people seem to have here. I ran the GFO b/c my glass was getting dirty quicker than normal for a while, and figured PO4 was getting high. I usually only run GFO occasionally. For some other background, I have zero green algae and never have had any. Chaeto doesn't really grow at all & I tried an ATS and it doesn't grow either. Only cyano & now this, so I guess my nutrient ratios are slanted towards that.

I have the Hanna ULR checker, but find it generally useless. I will try to take a reading again today. So figuring out where PO4 is, and then dosing how much to have a better ratio to go with 25 nitrate?

When you say nuking, do you mean the H202? And do you not think a blackout is a good idea? Should I maybe stop skimming or run it half a day to let PO4 rise?

 

[mcarroll]

It sounds like the tank has been nutrient limited that whole time....it's possible that some other nutrient like Fe was the one doing the limiting at some point, but the likelihood IMO is that it was PO4 the whole time.

I have the Hanna ULR checker, but find it generally useless.

The Hanna tests are cumbersome compared to the liquid tests, but for PO4 there really isn't a substitute if you really want to know those low readings. Definitely not useless. (And the PO4 tester is one of the easiest ones! Ca is a pain!)

On the other hand, you might be able to infer from the Salifert test whether you have "enough" PO4 without knowing precisely how much you have. The trouble for me and most folks is that it's hard for us to discern between super-light-blue and super-duper-light-blue.

The meter is good at discerning those shades of blue, but it needs a REALLY clean vial and debris-free water sample to read. The reagent packet can also be a little grouchy and it's important to get 99.9% of the powder out. (A tiny amount of residue left in the packet is unavoidable.)

So figuring out where PO4 is, and then dosing how much to have a better ratio to go with 25 nitrate?

Figuring out the PO4 is just to make sure the low-PO4 thing is right. If it's really low, then we're having the right conversation and the next step might be to dose some liquid PO4. Not to get ahead of the conversation tho....let's see what the Hanna says when you coerce a reading from it!

When you say nuking, do you mean[...]

...everything you are actively doing to kill anything in the tank.

vibrant, bleach, h2o2....anything. Stop the war.

Should I maybe stop skimming or run it half a day to let PO4 rise?

I'm not sure the skimmer can make that big of a contribution, and it would take a fair amount of monitoring (with the Hanna) to see if it worked as planned. I would probably skim as usual.

Any chance you have a diatom or UV filter?

 

[rockskimmerflow]

Ok, that would make sense. I've been carbon dosing forever but increased it & ran some GFO before this started. Again I have always had nitrates around the 25 (if not higher) on the Salifert kit. Even with carbon dosing & siporax they have never been undetectable like some people seem to have here. I ran the GFO b/c my glass was getting dirty quicker than normal for a while, and figured PO4 was getting high. I usually only run GFO occasionally. For some other background, I have zero green algae and never have had any. Chaeto doesn't really grow at all & I tried an ATS and it doesn't grow either. Only cyano & now this, so I guess my nutrient ratios are slanted towards that.

I have the Hanna ULR checker, but find it generally useless. I will try to take a reading again today. So figuring out where PO4 is, and then dosing how much to have a better ratio to go with 25 nitrate?

When you say nuking, do you mean the H202? And do you not think a blackout is a good idea? Should I maybe stop skimming or run it half a day to let PO4 rise?

When you say 'I have zero green algae and never have had any' that tells me your dino bloom correlates with tank conditions that I have come to expect. I maintain a lot of (40+) aquarium systems with many and varied stocking, lighting, filtration, etc. In the past two years I have encountered more people dealing with and looking for help correcting dino blooms than ever before. Most don't know that it's dinos and are often told that it's likely cyano bacteria or some other nuisance slime algae. If one thing is consistent among the tanks I assess and treat, it's the lack of naturally occurring green turf or film algaes. Cyano is about the only other type of algae I come across in these systems. Once nutrients are rebalanced, turf algaes and pods reintroduced, and consistent levels are maintained the dinos inevitably fade away. Some cases are tougher than others, but generally one month of consistent husbandry is enough to reduce a bloom 90 percent. I wish you the best of luck with your battle - you are on the right track for sure.

This is probably the last I'll contribute to this topic. I just hope those in this thread who seem resistant to the simplicity of the nutrient balance method of dino eradication give it an honest try and see what happens. I know it sounds basic and results are not 'overnight' immediate, but it's the best way to ensure minimal livestock losses/stress during the battle and realistically it is actually the fastest way to clear a bloom and keep it gone.

 

[Jolanta]

Thats how my tank looks during the diatom filter use , my fish love to swimm in the outlet hose. Yesterday I didnt notice dino return, I hope when I return home today it will still be clean My phosphate stay stable at 0.05 and my nitrates at 25, Im glad my phoshate dont go down couse everytime I see my dinos bloom my phosphate go down slowly. This time is 22 days after the blackout and they still stay at a good level

 

[Paul B]

Jolanta, you should put some water in that tank. I don't see it.

 

[Jolanta]

Jolanta, you should put some water in that tank. I don't see it.

It was during the filter was working, I was blowing stuff of my rocks and sand so you can see some things floating still, but when I finished the proces it was veeeeery clean, I really love it and thanks for that recomendation. I didnt even knew those things exist

 

[landlubber]

i've been following this thread a little bit as well but had a dose of fluccanozole for bryopsis to manage before taking measures to battle the dinos that were literally an underlying issue to my algae problems. now that the dinos are all that remains i need to decide a gameplan and just want some confirmation i'm doing this right.
first, i've read suggestions to hold off on water changes so as not to feed the dinos but it was mentioned i should vac substrate out daily into a filter sock returning all the water to the tank but catching the dinos. seems like a good idea to me so i'm going to try that.
also, my intent is to keep nutrients low but not completely undetectable with reduced feeding schedule and i'm on the fence whether or not i should commit to a 3-day blackout.
any suggestions welcome!

 

[mcarroll]

i've been following this thread a little bit as well but had a dose of fluccanozole for bryopsis to manage before taking measures to battle the dinos that were literally an underlying issue to my algae problems. now that the dinos are all that remains i need to decide a gameplan and just want some confirmation i'm doing this right.
first, i've read suggestions to hold off on water changes so as not to feed the dinos but it was mentioned i should vac substrate out daily into a filter sock returning all the water to the tank but catching the dinos. seems like a good idea to me so i'm going to try that.
also, my intent is to keep nutrients low but not completely undetectable with reduced feeding schedule and i'm on the fence whether or not i should commit to a 3-day blackout.
any suggestions welcome!

"No" to most of that...except the part about keeping nutrients from becoming undetectable. A blackout "could" help, but hasn't in many cases.

Check out post #4146.

 

[Pmj]

@mcarroll

I'm looking for some advice. I still haven't done my hanna PO4 test b/c this weekend was hectic and the dinos were getting totally out of control in looking at the tank today. I blew off the rocks & cleaned the glass when I got home today and since, everything (corals, nem) is super PO'ed and shriveled. I think some dinos were dying b/c although there were a ton of brown dinos, there seemed to be a lot of white/grey ones like snot when I was blowing off the rocks & especially powerheads.

On top of that, I had turned my return up super high to increase flow through the sump and consequently filter sock and an hour later my cheap flex hose had popped off and put a few gallons of water all over the floor and bottom of the stand. That is since taken care of (and not fun) and I replaced the water lost, but like I said everything still seems unhappy. I put some carbon since I hadn't had any since starting H202 a while ago, in the hope it filters anything out. I'm also making more water for a water change (and luckily I can make a lot quickly). I also cleaned the skimmer and have it running and will clean the sock I just put in (it's already nasty).

Should I go the mass water change route? I cannot believe how quickly this escalated. BTW my alk was steady where it was a few days ago and nitrates were the same 25ish. Those are the only things i've tested so far.

 

[becks]

Just an update, when I switched my lights on for mostly blues and at a low level after the 9 day black out, so started to come on the 10th day by the second day dinos were populating on my sand again. Because I done the black out during my vacation it did not bother me as much as if I had to look at a covered tank for the duration.

I'm not sure what species I have as they don't grow long and stringy, rather remain on the sand bed and if left populate a few areas of rocks but my corals are unaffected.

Since then Ive stopped cleaning the glass and letting the tank get a little dirty and it seems like the dinos are under control,

Luckily it does not get me down.

 

[mcarroll]

Bummer about that hose!!!

I put some carbon since I hadn't had any since starting H202 a while ago, in the hope it filters anything out.

Not a bad idea....don't overdo it though. Run the recommneded amount for the recommended amount of time.

Should I go the mass water change route?

It's a tough call....some folks have their dino's seem to bloom more after a water change.

I'd start with the carbon and see how things go.

Prioritize that testing! In case it saves time, maybe take a sample to the LFS and have them test it?

 

[landlubber]

@mcarroll ok so no carbon dosing but continue on using activated carbon, avoid water changes if possible and, like usual, strive for stability. should i not siphon the dinos from the tank and return the water through a filter sock into my sump? so much conflicting info on some of these methods

 

[becks]

it seems the dirty approach is working for me,

 

[mcarroll]

should i not siphon the dinos from the tank and return the water through a filter sock into my sump? so much conflicting info on some of these methods

I don't think it will hurt anything to do that, it's questionable if it's worth the effort though.

To begin with, I think you'd need a micron-level filter bag to actually catch most/all the dino's. Those bags exist, but it's not what most people use. I think 100µ is typical and you're not going to catch anything but the big hunks with that. And like I said, I just don't know if that would be worth the effort. Especially if your dino's aren't doing anything worse than being ugly. They'll subside without you lifting a finger if you just want to be lazy.

However, if you had evidence your dino's were toxic or there was another overriding reason to manually remove them, I'd say to siphon them out with a normal water change, but try to use a smaller-diameter hose so it's a small water change. You can get more gunk and less water for your time – use 1/2" hose at most....even use airline tubing if you have a lot of small detritus-like material to get.