Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!

[Paullawr]

So was most or all of your live stock dead and you just made a plan to make it more unbearable for anything else to live? Or was this a way to keep live stock(coral/fish) alive with the intent to kill off dinos?

That's right. I had nothing better to do with my day!

Alternatively this is a rhetorical question so not convinced it needs answering.

 

[Paullawr]

Anyway by weekend plan to follow advice by @mcarroll and @taricha amd see what comes of it.

I'll be honest I'm really ticked and ready to throw in towel.

 

[mcarroll]

Dnt really think that thread is relative. Dinos will be back in mt new system once i started buying corals. I know for certain[...]

I know this issue has been around the block, but all I can say at the moment is to trust me (and the rest of the folks on that thread) and give not battling a try. It's working.

PM me also or instead if you wanna go through the details.

 

[Paullawr]

I know this issue has been around the block, but all I can say at the moment is to trust me (and the rest of the folks on that thread) and give not battling a try. It's working.

PM me also or instead if you wanna go through the details.

+1

Ive been there and now I have egg on my face.

I plan to increase nutrients in proportion...slowly and keep an equilibrium.

 

[reeferfoxx]

That's right. I had nothing better to do with my day!

Alternatively this is a rhetorical question so not convinced it needs answering.

It wasnt rhetorical or sarcastic. For some reason i mistranslated and thought you were making success. Nevermind...

 

[Paullawr]

It wasnt rhetorical or sarcastic. For some reason i mistranslated and thought you were making success. Nevermind...

Sorry bad translation on my behalf then.

Yes some success, but need to follow what others are doing now.

 

[m0jjen]

The penny has dropped. It's not the phosphate or nitrate killing them it's the fact it encourages other organisms which do.

The nitrate and phosphate obviously dont kill them, they favor other organisms which outcompete But saying "favor other organisms" and "dose nutrients" is pretty much the same thing in different words. The nutrient is meaningless if nothing uses it

 

[bh750]

Firstly still wish to apologise to @bh750 For sounding like a complete ****-hole.


Secondly I'd like to have a go at your method. If you could share your steps please.

I've lost a bird of paradise, grown from a 1inch *** to mini colony. A strawberry sc, hammer, and a Seratosa.

I've been dosing (heavy) vibrant daily, metroplex, garlic, prodibo, chemiclean (whole tub) p, My ph runs usually around 8.5
I noticed a few dead ones today (see vids). I've been letting them sit in their own crap for last 10 Days.

So today dumped remaining quarter bottle of vibrant, more garlic, fast swing of ph to 9.8, 21 days worth of metroplex in one go.....

Oh and did some siphoning.

Lights running blue plus uv-a.

Hey Paul, LOL no worries at all! I understand the frustration maybe as much as anyone. I've been battling these for so long. Anyway, here's a detailed rundown of what I've done and think I've finally beaten them after 5 years...

• Bought myself a good microscope. Spent ~$300 which was tough but figured once and for all I needed to know exactly what I was battling. Best step for me so far. After a short learning curve and tons of help here on R2R I positively identified Dino Amph.
  
  
• Purchased a new Nitrate test kit and Phosphate reagents for my Hanna Low Range PO4 checker. I should call out that I've previously strived for zero nutrients (NO3 and PO4), wrongly. And last year I had luck with when I tried the "dirty" method to fight dinoes, which meant I simply overfed like a beast. Downside was a huge GHA outbreak that took a long time to get in check. No dinos tho! Also wasnt testing so had no idea what I was adding to my tank. Just kept throwing more and more food in there until the Dinos were not noticable.
  
  
• Took baseline measurements for both Nitrates (NO3) and Phosphates (PO4) using my new kits. Also took pictures and kepy a daily log (will share).
  
  
• My goals were to have NO3 between 3 and 12 PPM and Nitrates between 0.01 and 0.10 PPM. Again, previously I had zero measurable NO3 and undetectable PO4.
  
  
• For dosing I used either Stump Remover (for NO3) and Seachem Flourish Phosphorus (for P04). Any time the daily measurement was below my goals I would dose. In the beginning I was just guessing (and still am). I have a 300g total volume system. I would dose between 5ml and 20ml of PO4 at a time. See detailed chart below.
  
  
• Another big part of the plan was to add more micro-life as I call it. Specifically in the form of pods and macroalgae. I actually added some more refugium space too. Went to a place called the Algae Barn online (great place!!!) and ordered some different macros, pods, and also got some free phyto with it. Macro and pods went into my new fuge, existing fuge, and display tank. And dosed Phyto for maybe 10 days. I feel like this is probably an important step.

As you can see from my chart I never had to dose Stump Remover since NO3 was always inline. But I noticed a difference immediately after dosing the PO4 Seachem Phosphorus! After years of starting at this stuff, daily, I have a keen eye for any changes, sadly. As I added PO4 you'll see my readings didnt change but the Dinos did.

I also followed the advice from everyone on here to take it slowly. Thats why after seeing results after day 1 I resisted the temptation to douse the tank with PO4 Seriously, I wanted to take it slow, document everything, and try to learn as much as I could so I can share it here.

I'll post pictures and the full log when I get a chance. I would say right around day 17 the dinos where 95% gone!

I continued, and still do today almost 2 months after starting, to measure pretty much daily and dose as needed. I have a really nice population of pods growing in my fuges.

Oh, and somewhere around day 30 I came home to see my tank looking pristine! It looked like the time I treated it with Chemiclean. All rocks and sand so clean!!!

Since then I've been dealing with a breakout of Diatoms but I think that's b/c I let my RODI filters go and am getting silicates into the tank.

Which brings me to the final learning point, and one I wrote at the top about the microscopes. When I got the Diatoms a few weeks ago they look just like the start of dinos!!!
Previously I would've panicked and freaked out with "they're back!!" cries. This time I took a sample and put it under the scope. I did see a few dinos (as totally expected) but mostly it was diatoms.

So rather than over-react with a "Dinofreakout" I'm treating for diatoms.

Here's the first 2 weeks or so of data.

So short story long, thats how the "balanced" approach worked for me.

Let me know if anyone has questions and I'll try to answer. Will post pictures and more detailed log soon.

Bryan

 

[Scubabeth]

Hey Paul, LOL no worries at all! I understand the frustration maybe as much as anyone. I've been battling these for so long. Anyway, here's a detailed rundown of what I've done and think I've finally beaten them after 5 years...

• Bought myself a good microscope. Spent ~$300 which was tough but figured once and for all I needed to know exactly what I was battling. Best step for me so far. After a short learning curve and tons of help here on R2R I positively identified Dino Amph.
  
  
• Purchased a new Nitrate test kit and Phosphate reagents for my Hanna Low Range PO4 checker. I should call out that I've previously strived for zero nutrients (NO3 and PO4), wrongly. And last year I had luck with when I tried the "dirty" method to fight dinoes, which meant I simply overfed like a beast. Downside was a huge GHA outbreak that took a long time to get in check. No dinos tho! Also wasnt testing so had no idea what I was adding to my tank. Just kept throwing more and more food in there until the Dinos were not noticable.
  
  
• Took baseline measurements for both Nitrates (NO3) and Phosphates (PO4) using my new kits. Also took pictures and kepy a daily log (will share).
  
  
• My goals were to have NO3 between 3 and 12 PPM and Nitrates between 0.01 and 0.10 PPM. Again, previously I had zero measurable NO3 and undetectable PO4.
  
  
• For dosing I used either Stump Remover (for NO3) and Seachem Flourish Phosphorus (for P04). Any time the daily measurement was below my goals I would dose. In the beginning I was just guessing (and still am). I have a 300g total volume system. I would dose between 5ml and 20ml of PO4 at a time. See detailed chart below.
  
  
• Another big part of the plan was to add more micro-life as I call it. Specifically in the form of pods and macroalgae. I actually added some more refugium space too. Went to a place called the Algae Barn online (great place!!!) and ordered some different macros, pods, and also got some free phyto with it. Macro and pods went into my new fuge, existing fuge, and display tank. And dosed Phyto for maybe 10 days. I feel like this is probably an important step.

As you can see from my chart I never had to dose Stump Remover since NO3 was always inline. But I noticed a difference immediately after dosing the PO4 Seachem Phosphorus! After years of starting at this stuff, daily, I have a keen eye for any changes, sadly. As I added PO4 you'll see my readings didnt change but the Dinos did.

I also followed the advice from everyone on here to take it slowly. Thats why after seeing results after day 1 I resisted the temptation to douse the tank with PO4 Seriously, I wanted to take it slow, document everything, and try to learn as much as I could so I can share it here.

I'll post pictures and the full log when I get a chance. I would say right around day 17 the dinos where 95% gone!

I continued, and still do today almost 2 months after starting, to measure pretty much daily and dose as needed. I have a really nice population of pods growing in my fuges.

Oh, and somewhere around day 30 I came home to see my tank looking pristine! It looked like the time I treated it with Chemiclean. All rocks and sand so clean!!!

Since then I've been dealing with a breakout of Diatoms but I think that's b/c I let my RODI filters go and am getting silicates into the tank.

Which brings me to the final learning point, and one I wrote at the top about the microscopes. When I got the Diatoms a few weeks ago they look just like the start of dinos!!!
Previously I would've panicked and freaked out with "they're back!!" cries. This time I took a sample and put it under the scope. I did see a few dinos (as totally expected) but mostly it was diatoms.

So rather than over-react with a "Dinofreakout" I'm treating for diatoms.

Here's the first 2 weeks or so of data.

So short story long, thats how the "balanced" approach worked for me.

Let me know if anyone has questions and I'll try to answer. Will post pictures and more detailed log soon.

Bryan

Good stuff, @bh750! We have 3 types of dinos in our tank (small cell amphidinium, ostreo species, and a spherical one believed to be coolia). No ostreo strand blooms since dosing Vibrant in Nov, but we have tiny patches of amphidinium on specific areas of rock and sand and some white coolia webs on the back wall. We had been dosing NO3, and per this thread have started dosing PO4 as well. I dosed too much PO4 too quickly, as I was not seeing any increase in PO4 levels with daily testing, and the dinos webs/patches have become less noticeable, but now have some unwanted green algae growth. Ha! That's OK; that will fade with time and husbandry, I know, so no worries. Good to read your dosage and see how little you dosed! Thanks for documenting and sharing!

 

[Paullawr]

Hey Paul, LOL no worries at all! I understand the frustration maybe as much as anyone. I've been battling these for so long. Anyway, here's a detailed rundown of what I've done and think I've finally beaten them after 5 years...

• Bought myself a good microscope. Spent ~$300 which was tough but figured once and for all I needed to know exactly what I was battling. Best step for me so far. After a short learning curve and tons of help here on R2R I positively identified Dino Amph.
  
  
• Purchased a new Nitrate test kit and Phosphate reagents for my Hanna Low Range PO4 checker. I should call out that I've previously strived for zero nutrients (NO3 and PO4), wrongly. And last year I had luck with when I tried the "dirty" method to fight dinoes, which meant I simply overfed like a beast. Downside was a huge GHA outbreak that took a long time to get in check. No dinos tho! Also wasnt testing so had no idea what I was adding to my tank. Just kept throwing more and more food in there until the Dinos were not noticable.
  
  
• Took baseline measurements for both Nitrates (NO3) and Phosphates (PO4) using my new kits. Also took pictures and kepy a daily log (will share).
  
  
• My goals were to have NO3 between 3 and 12 PPM and Nitrates between 0.01 and 0.10 PPM. Again, previously I had zero measurable NO3 and undetectable PO4.
  
  
• For dosing I used either Stump Remover (for NO3) and Seachem Flourish Phosphorus (for P04). Any time the daily measurement was below my goals I would dose. In the beginning I was just guessing (and still am). I have a 300g total volume system. I would dose between 5ml and 20ml of PO4 at a time. See detailed chart below.
  
  
• Another big part of the plan was to add more micro-life as I call it. Specifically in the form of pods and macroalgae. I actually added some more refugium space too. Went to a place called the Algae Barn online (great place!!!) and ordered some different macros, pods, and also got some free phyto with it. Macro and pods went into my new fuge, existing fuge, and display tank. And dosed Phyto for maybe 10 days. I feel like this is probably an important step.

As you can see from my chart I never had to dose Stump Remover since NO3 was always inline. But I noticed a difference immediately after dosing the PO4 Seachem Phosphorus! After years of starting at this stuff, daily, I have a keen eye for any changes, sadly. As I added PO4 you'll see my readings didnt change but the Dinos did.

I also followed the advice from everyone on here to take it slowly. Thats why after seeing results after day 1 I resisted the temptation to douse the tank with PO4 Seriously, I wanted to take it slow, document everything, and try to learn as much as I could so I can share it here.

I'll post pictures and the full log when I get a chance. I would say right around day 17 the dinos where 95% gone!

I continued, and still do today almost 2 months after starting, to measure pretty much daily and dose as needed. I have a really nice population of pods growing in my fuges.

Oh, and somewhere around day 30 I came home to see my tank looking pristine! It looked like the time I treated it with Chemiclean. All rocks and sand so clean!!!

Since then I've been dealing with a breakout of Diatoms but I think that's b/c I let my RODI filters go and am getting silicates into the tank.

Which brings me to the final learning point, and one I wrote at the top about the microscopes. When I got the Diatoms a few weeks ago they look just like the start of dinos!!!
Previously I would've panicked and freaked out with "they're back!!" cries. This time I took a sample and put it under the scope. I did see a few dinos (as totally expected) but mostly it was diatoms.

So rather than over-react with a "Dinofreakout" I'm treating for diatoms.

Here's the first 2 weeks or so of data.

So short story long, thats how the "balanced" approach worked for me.

Let me know if anyone has questions and I'll try to answer. Will post pictures and more detailed log soon.

Bryan

What an incredible post. This is the most detailed log I've read. Really appreciate the time typing this out and charting.

I will do the same commencing this weekend. I have nitrate and phosphate (both diy). Fills me with some confidence on the dosing amounts i.e. Guessing initially as I'll be doing the same.

Again really great post.

 

[taricha]

@bh750 thanks so much for awesome report details on amphidinium. Very few people had a sustained, well reported amphidinium battle. Even fewer made sane attempts ;-)

The similarities with my big amphidinium battle are numerous and almost eerie. I'll go through them later.

It's especially interesting because amphidinium not going into water column means that we have fewer effective measures vs this kind. Seriously. Great info!

 

[johnsamm7]

When I dose metroplex should I remove my chemi pure elite

 

[Paullawr]

When I dose metroplex should I remove my chemi pure elite

Yes

 

[bh750]

So glad the information in my post is helpful!! I recorded all of this with the hope of sharing my experiences. So building on the above here's a complete log for when I measured and dosed PO4, added pods, phyto, etc. Along with some pictures.

First, here's what my tank looked like on 5/11. Again, this was identified as Dinoflagellates Amphidinium, mostly on my sandbed, not really stringy.

Here's the full log

And some pictures of how it looked on 5/26, two short weeks after starting:

So not completely gone, took longer for that. But gives you an idea.

HTH!

Bryan

 

[Paullawr]

@bh750 thanks so much for awesome report details on amphidinium. Very few people had a sustained, well reported amphidinium battle. Even fewer made sane attempts ;-)

The similarities with my big amphidinium battle are numerous and almost eerie. I'll go through them later.

It's especially interesting because amphidinium not going into water column means that we have fewer effective measures vs this kind. Seriously. Great info!

Tut tut....all my attempts are sane.

 

[Paullawr]

So glad the information in my post is helpful!! I recorded all of this with the hope of sharing my experiences. So building on the above here's a complete log for when I measured and dosed PO4, added pods, phyto, etc. Along with some pictures.

First, here's what my tank looked like on 5/11. Again, this was identified as Dinoflagellates Amphidinium, mostly on my sandbed, not really stringy.

Here's the full log

And some pictures of how it looked on 5/26, two short weeks after starting:

So not completely gone, took longer for that. But gives you an idea.

HTH!

Bryan

You sir, are one amazing individual.

 

[taricha]

Edit: This discussion is about one particular strain of dinos: Large Cell Amphidinium (that do not leave the substrate), and is not about how to deal with other kinds. Ostis will not be choked out by covering with macroalgae.

Tut tut....all my attempts are sane.

heh. I realized after posting that, my "strategy" vs amphidinium was very much insane. Literally "I got these by trying to kill all algae, so I'm gonna grow as much algae as I can"

Anyway, here's a detailed rundown of what I've done and think I've finally beaten them after 5 years...
Bought myself a good microscope. Spent ~$300 which was tough but figured once and for all I needed to know exactly what I was battling. Best step for me so far. After a short learning curve and tons of help here on R2R I positively identified Dino Amph.

Microscopes should come with reef tanks. For those following, this is Large Cell Amphidinium, Bryan's pics and vid seen here

I should call out that I've previously strived for zero nutrients (NO3 and PO4), wrongly.

Me Jan 2016: Yay! new lowest PO4 reading ever on Hannah ULR! Goodbye GHA!
5 days later: I wonder what that brown stuff is?....

And last year I had luck with when I tried the "dirty" method to fight dinoes, which meant I simply overfed like a beast. Downside was a huge GHA outbreak that took a long time to get in check. No dinos tho! Also wasnt testing so had no idea what I was adding to my tank.

I dumped food in my tank for weeks, skimmed nothing and still took forever to get nutrients up. Meantime, the bristleworm army from all the overfeeding was terrifying. That's when I switched over to dosing. Much better results.

My goals were to have NO3 between 3 and 12 PPM and Nitrates between 0.01 and 0.10 PPM. Again, previously I had zero measurable NO3 and undetectable PO4.

My target in my system is NO3 of 5-10 and PO4 of just under 0.10

For dosing I used either Stump Remover (for NO3) and Seachem Flourish Phosphorus (for P04).

Same. I did a little bit with NaNO3 instead of KNO3, but the K also helps with the macroalgae growth, so went back to it.

Another big part of the plan was to add more micro-life as I call it. Specifically in the form of pods and macroalgae. I actually added some more refugium space too. Went to a place called the Algae Barn online (great place!!!) and ordered some different macros, pods, and also got some free phyto with it. I feel like this is probably an important step.

I eventually turned my tank into this. Macros in my fuge, display, everywhere.

Oh, and somewhere around day 30 I came home to see my tank looking pristine! It looked like the time I treated it with Chemiclean. All rocks and sand so clean!!!

Bad stuff on Feb 12th, Clean pics on March 15th

Which brings me to the final learning point, and one I wrote at the top about the microscopes. When I got the Diatoms a few weeks ago they look just like the start of dinos!!!
Previously I would've panicked and freaked out with "they're back!!" cries. This time I took a sample and put it under the scope. I did see a few dinos (as totally expected) but mostly it was diatoms.

I also had a small diatom growth after dinos were gone, and despite staring at dinos every day, I assumed wrong. I don't assume anything without microscope anymore.

 

[Paullawr]

I eventually turned my tank into this. Macros in my fuge, display,everywhere.

I love this. The tank looks amazing. Natural as well.

 

[Paullawr]

I guess all newbies ( a decade I might add ) of marine keeping has taught me a few things.

The ole timers know what they are doing @Paul B (sorry less of the ole )

I'm a stubborn ****-hole and should listen more.

One day we might find dinos are actually symbiotic with the tank....we just forced them to survive.

 

[leocom2000]

Can you help with Id?