Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!

[Paullawr]

Ok guys....

In the latest clutching at straws idea...

Is silver safe to use in aquariums...?

If copper kills nastys and nice things silver also kills nastys but never heard of it having an effect on the little crustys.

Presumably that's because we cannot afford aquariums made of milion dollar bling. Though I'm liking the sound of silver .925 return pipes.

http://www.whatarebacteria.com/how-to-get-rid-of-bacteria/

I'm sure Paul B used to use a copper coin on its side to kill off pathogens.

So anyone have any silver bullion / coins knocking around....

Or has this all got too much and now I've finally flipped.

 

[becks]

You could test in a QT instead? Or a glass jar and see how the dino react to silver, then if it works, seed a QT with Dino and a filter then kill the Dino and then test it afterwards add some ammonia and test to see if it affects the biofilter, lastly add a snail and frag and observe how they react. Unless someone has experience or knows how silver affects reefs

 

[becks]

Nvm found this

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-ich-treatment.158940/

Seems there's a treatment in Europe for fungas which is ionic silver

 

[Paullawr]

You could test in a QT instead? Or a glass jar and see how the dino react to silver, then if it works, seed a QT with Dino and a filter then kill the Dino and then test it afterwards add some ammonia and test to see if it affects the biofilter, lastly add a snail and frag and observe how they react. Unless someone has experience or knows how silver affects reefs

That's was brilliant (made me chuckle).

 

[Paullawr]

Well there is also structured silver.

Apparently silver is probiotic safe....

https://www.phstructuredsilver.com

 

[Paullawr]

Nvm found this

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-ich-treatment.158940/

Seems there's a treatment in Europe for fungas which is ionic silver

Interesting Beck. Ick is nothing more than a protozoan - which is what we are fighting.

Maybe this does deserve a look. Perhaps even in a one two approach with metro.

Definitely needs testing though.

 

[Paul B]

I'm sure Paul B used to use a copper coin on its side to kill off pathogens.

Actually, it was 20 pennies to a gallon.

 

[mandrieu]

Interesting Beck. Ick is nothing more than a protozoan - which is what we are fighting.

Maybe this does deserve a look. Perhaps even in a one two approach with metro.

Definitely needs testing though.

It wasn't ick but Brooklynella. And it apparently wipes out good/bad bacteria so not something you want to use in your display tank, I think

 

[mcarroll]

Hey guys im gonna be trying Metro for the first time and just wanna clarify can i still run GFO and Skimmer during entire treatment? Im sure its some where in the 189 pages but thats alot to read....
The info i did gather from the first 20 or so pages is 3 days 125mg per 10g, run filter sock/filter floss, remove GAC, manually remove as much as you can, After 14 days do WC and re introduce GAC?
Does this sound right? Are there any steps i missed?

Metronidazole is an antibiotic and known not to work very well on dinos....certainly not as a sole strategy.

That's two great reasons to avoid this treatment.

Personally I would not use it because it's an antibiotic. It will affect many more organisms than the one you're attempting to target, plus using it has environmental consequences.

But even if you think that's not an issue, then I wouldn't use it because it's ineffective.

I would finish reading the thread before embarking on any plan like this one.....adding destructive chemicals or mystery organisms doesn't seem to help much and should not be required.

The safe route is:

• make changes small and allow 3-4 weeks between changes so you can see effects on the system
• assuring a supply of dissolved nitrates and phosphates. In the short term, a nitrate and phosphate liquid additive is often the quickest way to get your turnaround started.
• make sure you have a regular feeding routine. Use an auto-feeder to help you, if needed.
• fixing anything that's wrong with the water.....mg, ca, alk and s.g. should all be dialed in and STABLE.
• siphon or at least scrub anything you can get to
• consider other low-/no-risk options like UV and diatom filtration

 

[Jolanta]

So I took out my super expensive tool today

And did some cleaning. Thats my ostreopsis soup.

I think I will start to sell them as a pet and make myself rich
Tomorrow I will start another blackout waiting to my diatom filter to arrive. I need to stop them to reproduce or I think my fish wont last long. It really is getting horrible and small really bad.

 

[mwilk19]

So I took out my super expensive tool today

And did some cleaning. Thats my ostreopsis soup.

I think I will start to sell them as a pet and make myself rich
Tomorrow I will start another blackout waiting to my diatom filter to arrive. I need to stop them to reproduce or I think my fish wont last long. It really is getting horrible and small really bad.

Oh, you've got one of those tools too?

 

[mcarroll]

If you think about it, this may well be what happens when we attempt the "high PH" method by using Kalk slurry, which is a line of attack suggested by Dr @Randy Holmes-Farley here: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/

Was re-thinking about this...

We tend to consider this as a modern aquarium problem, but Randy went to the trouble of surveying all those people for that article back in 2006.

The problem isn't new at all and thankfully we're learning more about it all the time! (I think pH of 9 is what I've seen int he literature.)

But prevalence might be increasing, as has been postulated before, due to changes in our collective husbandry habits!

Organic carbon dosing is way more prevalent than it used to be and is used in many more circumstances than just as a nitrate control, for example. High levels of carbon are associated with HAB's (harmful algae blooms) in nature. N-starvation and P-starvation both also appear to have roles.

 

[mcarroll]

So I took out my super expensive tool today

And did some cleaning. Thats my ostreopsis soup.

I think I will start to sell them as a pet and make myself rich
Tomorrow I will start another blackout waiting to my diatom filter to arrive. I need to stop them to reproduce or I think my fish wont last long. It really is getting horrible and small really bad.

Are you using activated carbon on the tank? That should help the fish.

Keep it changed at least according to the package directions.

Any ETA on the N and P nutrients?

 

[rockskimmerflow]

Was re-thinking about this...

We tend to consider this as a modern aquarium problem, but Randy went to the trouble of surveying all those people for that article back in 2006.

The problem isn't new at all and thankfully we're learning more about it all the time! (I think pH of 9 is what I've seen int he literature.)

But prevalence might be increasing, as has been postulated before, due to changes in our collective husbandry habits!

Organic carbon dosing is way more prevalent than it used to be and is used in many more circumstances than just as a nitrate control, for example. High levels of carbon are associated with HAB's (harmful algae blooms) in nature. N-starvation and P-starvation both also appear to have roles.

Just checked back in on this thread after 6 months or so to see how everyone is faring. Glad to see the advice shifting away from all these various targeted poisons and other methods of attack against what is at the end of the day an opportunistic organism. The balance of the tank simply needs to be shifted in favor or more desirable single and multicellular photosynthetic organisms. Modern extreme nutrient reduction methods and especially carbon dosing seem to create a perfect environment in which dinoflagellates can thrive without any direct competition.

I have found no other reliable way of beating ostreopsis besides raising nitrate and maintaining a low, but measureable amount of phosphate to encourage green algal growth. Green turf or hair algae is easy to manage with appropriate herbivores once it is present and has out competed the dino. The green algaes seem to strip the water of free iron and occupy the available surface area for dinos to attach.

Beating dinos chemically or with a blackout will leave you vulnerable to future blooms if steps are not taken to establish a more robust nutrient and biological cycle within the aquarium- one that includes some forms of green algae.

 

[taricha]

My update... a few weeks of UV sterilization, skimming and also finally my algae scrubber is growing algae. I have not done anything else (no medications, H202,etc). My tank seems to have some remnants of dinos... but not nearly as before. I check with a quick hit of my baster and no evidence of the dust of dinos as before. I honestly have little evidence of them at all.

Thanks for awesome report. For those keeping score, this was versus Small Cell Amphidinium. first time I know of UV being used against this kind. UV is often helpful versus ostreopsis, but is known to be useless against Large Cell Amphidinium because it does not go into the water at night. Unknown vs prorocentrum.
@hefner413 , can you tell us (link ?) what kind of UV you used and what your tank size is?

... Modern extreme nutrient reduction methods and especially carbon dosing seem to create a perfect environment in which dinoflagellates can thrive without any direct competition.

I have found no other reliable way of beating ostreopsis besides raising nitrate and maintaining a low, but measureable amount of phosphate to encourage green algal growth. Green turf or hair algae is easy to manage with appropriate herbivores once it is present and has out competed the dino. The green algaes seem to strip the water of free iron and occupy the available surface area for dinos to attach.

Beating dinos chemically or with a blackout will leave you vulnerable to future blooms if steps are not taken to establish a more robust nutrient and biological cycle within the aquarium- one that includes some forms of green algae.

100% thumbs up. All matches my experience and observations too. Great advice. It's nice to have people who succeeded drop in from time to time to mention what they did. Obviously these threads will mostly be those who are still struggling.
There are many ways to reduce dino populations, sometimes to near zero. But I don't know of any long term, stable, reproducible method to successfully keep them gone other than what you've laid out.

So if you've used some indiscriminate kill method, vibrant, (high) h2o2, bleach, etc. and got your dinos to near zero, but also decimated your algae, you need an exit strategy to get you from dead and sterile to this....

...raising nitrate ... measureable phosphate... green algal growth.... algae ...manage[d] with herbivores once it... out competed the dino.

 

[Jolanta]

Just checked back in on this thread after 6 months or so to see how everyone is faring. Glad to see the advice shifting away from all these various targeted poisons and other methods of attack against what is at the end of the day an opportunistic organism. The balance of the tank simply needs to be shifted in favor or more desirable single and multicellular photosynthetic organisms. Modern extreme nutrient reduction methods and especially carbon dosing seem to create a perfect environment in which dinoflagellates can thrive without any direct competition.

I have found no other reliable way of beating ostreopsis besides raising nitrate and maintaining a low, but measureable amount of phosphate to encourage green algal growth. Green turf or hair algae is easy to manage with appropriate herbivores once it is present and has out competed the dino. The green algaes seem to strip the water of free iron and occupy the available surface area for dinos to attach.

Beating dinos chemically or with a blackout will leave you vulnerable to future blooms if steps are not taken to establish a more robust nutrient and biological cycle within the aquarium- one that includes some forms of green algae.

In my tank I never used carbon or gfo or other phosphate or nitrate remover and everything was nice but I got dinos in a frag, my system was low nutrients becouse had problem with valonia that was sucking my nitrates and phosphate to zero, then my dino problem started slowly. They told me to stop my skimmer and feed more and is when my dinos got worst and started to kill my sps. I bought Vibrant and it slowly killed my Valonia and my nitrates started to rise, I have few weeks now they are at 25 and my phosphate is at 0.02 and my ostreopsis is more happy now then ever. When I turn off my skimmer it get a lot more bad in days so I think rising your nutrients is not always a solucion. I bought phosphate additive and I will try it when arrives but Im afraid it will make them only worst.
Also I observe that my dinos dont grow on the clean rock surface, they grow when some hair algae shows and grow on top of it.

 

[Jolanta]

Are you using activated carbon on the tank? That should help the fish.

Keep it changed at least according to the package directions.

Any ETA on the N and P nutrients?

Yes I change it every week but my tangs are picking at rocks and eating some dinos
Whats ETA ? Sorry my english is not good

 

[Paullawr]

Metronidazole is an antibiotic and known not to work very well on dinos....certainly not as a sole strategy.

That's two great reasons to avoid this treatment.

Personally I would not use it because it's an antibiotic. It will affect many more organisms than the one you're attempting to target, plus using it has environmental consequences.

But even if you think that's not an issue, then I wouldn't use it because it's ineffective.

I would finish reading the thread before embarking on any plan like this one.....adding destructive chemicals or mystery organisms doesn't seem to help much and should not be required.

The safe route is:

• make changes small and allow 3-4 weeks between changes so you can see effects on the system
• assuring a supply of dissolved nitrates and phosphates. In the short term, a nitrate and phosphate liquid additive is often the quickest way to get your turnaround started.
• make sure you have a regular feeding routine. Use an auto-feeder to help you, if needed.
• fixing anything that's wrong with the water.....mg, ca, alk and s.g. should all be dialed in and STABLE.
• siphon or at least scrub anything you can get to
• consider other low-/no-risk options like UV and diatom filtration

Sorry but where is the information to support metro affecting other none dinoflagellate strains. Also it does have a significant impact initially.
It is only when the cells turn to cysts that the effectivness is reduced.

Having said this I've yet to see an extended long term usage or alternation between '14 day' cyst formation, re-germination then application of metro again.

I actually run out of metro whilst dosing and as it was only available from the US by the time the second batch had arrived i had missed any window of opportunity.

 

[Paullawr]

Yes I change it every week but my tangs are picking at rocks and eating some dinos
Whats ETA ? Sorry my english is not good

ETA means estimated time of arrival.

Not sure thats what he means though....

Unless you have some scheduled phosphate going in at 7.27 today !

 

[Paullawr]

Was re-thinking about this...

We tend to consider this as a modern aquarium problem, but Randy went to the trouble of surveying all those people for that article back in 2006.

The problem isn't new at all and thankfully we're learning more about it all the time! (I think pH of 9 is what I've seen int he literature.)

But prevalence might be increasing, as has been postulated before, due to changes in our collective husbandry habits!

Organic carbon dosing is way more prevalent than it used to be and is used in many more circumstances than just as a nitrate control, for example. High levels of carbon are associated with HAB's (harmful algae blooms) in nature. N-starvation and P-starvation both also appear to have roles.

I'm not going to disagree ( ) but.....There always a but right.

The correlation between Dino's increasing due to more ULNS systems thanks to carbon dosing is no more statistically correct then saying Dino's have increased because the hobby has along with more tank raised frags being exchanged.

The problem we have is that not two strains are the same. Both react and behave differently. Thus saying low organic load is a catalyst may in fact give the wrong impression.

I've said time and time again. My first aquarium had it and nitrates were high. As was phosphate.

I have seen threads saying nitrates should be kept around 3ppm as higher nitrates ie 25 reduce the effect of this nutrient balance.

Again this like comparing apples to pears.