Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Nirethell]

I just need bear in mind that you refer to us gals which is 3.8l whereas ours over here is 4.5l. I have sourced a variable pump which will give me max 1000l/h and min of approx. 400l/h, but think I will go for the next model up, the Vecton 400 and a pump with max 1350l/h, min approx. 600l/h.
Whats are your thoughts on this?

Curse the US education system for not being in sync with the rest of the world... This is all dependent on your strain of Dinos. Assuming you have Ostreopsis. The 400 has less wattage than the 300, i would be interested in seeing the actual size of the sterilizer and the bulb within, perhaps they get away with having a larger housing which means more contact time. If you did go with this you would need to strive for about 400l/h but again depending on your total system volume this may not be enough flow to ensure you have turnover of the water column. I am at about 500l total system including my sump, and 200gph/ 750l/h is what did it for me.
Be sure to do more than just buy the UV and pray that it works. If i were you I would be blowing it off as much as I could and changing my socks a few times a day.

If you havent already make sure your N is about 10, and you P is about 0.08

My normal routine was Stir up the sand bed, then blow it off the rocks.. wait 15 minutes, if more dinos, blow off again.. the process would repeat until I hit a 15 minute interval with none reattaching, then and only then I would change my socks. I did this at least once a day, if not twice. Yes it sucks, but man I was determined

 

[tonymacc]

Curse the US education system for not being in sync with the rest of the world... This is all dependent on your strain of Dinos. Assuming you have Ostreopsis. The 400 has less wattage than the 300, i would be interested in seeing the actual size of the sterilizer and the bulb within, perhaps they get away with having a larger housing which means more contact time. If you did go with this you would need to strive for about 400l/h but again depending on your total system volume this may not be enough flow to ensure you have turnover of the water column. I am at about 500l total system including my sump, and 200gph/ 750l/h is what did it for me.
Be sure to do more than just buy the UV and pray that it works. If i were you I would be blowing it off as much as I could and changing my socks a few times a day.

If you havent already make sure your N is about 10, and you P is about 0.08

My normal routine was Stir up the sand bed, then blow it off the rocks.. wait 15 minutes, if more dinos, blow off again.. the process would repeat until I hit a 15 minute interval with none reattaching, then and only then I would change my socks. I did this at least once a day, if not twice. Yes it sucks, but man I was determined

Yes, Ostreopsis.
460mm and 660mm long the length of the units300 and 400 respectively, there is only 1 watt difference, 300 is 16w max 960l/h the 400 is 15w but max 1300l/h.
tank and sump approx. 220 litres total volume .
The pump I was intending to get has variable flow.
This is a last stop for me, been battling these little ****es for a while, no3 and po4 has been maintained as well as blowing off everything every day , these are my 3rd lot. didn't get an id on the others, first lot disappeared before sampling, second lot appeared after I stupidly dosed gfo to try get the hair algae reduced, (NOTE TO SELF.....DO NOT USE GFO) this lot I have id'd as ostreopsis hence the need for a uv.

 

[Nirethell]

Yes, Ostreopsis.
460mm and 660mm long the length of the units300 and 400 respectively, there is only 1 watt difference, 300 is 16w max 960l/h the 400 is 15w but max 1300l/h.
tank and sump approx. 220 litres total volume .
The pump I was intending to get has variable flow.
This is a last stop for me, been battling these little ****es for a while, no3 and po4 has been maintained as well as blowing off everything every day , these are my 3rd lot. didn't get an id on the others, first lot disappeared before sampling, second lot appeared after I stupidly dosed gfo to try get the hair algae reduced, (NOTE TO SELF.....DO NOT USE GFO) this lot I have id'd as ostreopsis hence the need for a uv.

Id say you are on the right track thinking with this UV then, absolutely let us know how it goes. I hope it eradicates yours as it did mine!

 

[tonymacc]

Id say you are on the right track thinking with this UV then, absolutely let us know how it goes. I hope it eradicates yours as it did mine!

Didn't notice till you said about the wattage though, I did assume the 400 was a bigger wattage, the bulb sizes are interesting,

• 15W (measures 450mm pin to pin) will fit TMC Vecton 400
  
• 16W (measures 300mm pin to pin) will fit TMC Vecton 300

• 
  so the vecton 400 is 1watt lower but 150mm longer giving half as much contact time on top, so it does matter if I ran the same l/h because that tells me although its 1w less theres way more contact time, am I thinking correct here?

 

[Nirethell]

Didn't notice till you said about the wattage though, I did assume the 400 was a bigger wattage, the bulb sizes are interesting,

• 15W (measures 450mm pin to pin) will fit TMC Vecton 400
  
• 16W (measures 300mm pin to pin) will fit TMC Vecton 300

• 
  so the vecton 400 is 1watt lower but 150mm longer giving half as much contact time on top, so it does matter if I ran the same l/h because that tells me although its 1w less theres way more contact time, am I thinking correct here?

That's what I assumed that would have been the only way it would be rated higher. So more contact time is better imo

 

[fragit]

Has any body had success with beating Osteoporosis with anything other than UV, and elevated N+P? I would really like to avoid investing hundreds in a UV sterilizer.

 

[kecked]

I’m running 55w with a 295g per hour pump full bore. There is no evidence of dinos on the exhaust so they are either dead or just getting blown away. The inlet tube is totally cover inside and out so I doubt that the exit i# just blowing them away. I tried a slower rate and it was it as effective. I still have plenty dinos. Under a scope the cells coming out are definitely dead. 55w is serious damage.

Jebco55w is 80.00 on Amazon

 

[fragit]

I’m running 55w with a 295g per hour pump full bore. There is no evidence of dinos on the exhaust so they are either dead or just getting blown away. The inlet tube is totally cover inside and out so I doubt that the exit i# just blowing them away. I tried a slower rate and it was it as effective. I still have plenty dinos. Under a scope the cells coming out are definitely dead. 55w is serious damage.

Jebco55w is 80.00 on Amazon

Got a link to the one your using?

 

[kecked]

https://www.amazon.com/Jebao-CW-55-...8&qid=1522977795&sr=8-2&keywords=jebao+55w+uv

 

[Bret Brinkmann]

@tonymacc @Nirethell Here are the guide lines for UV sizing and flow rate determination based off of a few manufacturers manuals and some reverse engineering. They all follow the same guidelines because they are all designed using the same equations. Someone long ago did the experiments to determine what the best UV dosage is for algae and viruses. Either flow rate range will work with dinos based on multiple people's experiences. The guidelines below are relative to tank size so no need to zero in on an "ideal" flow rate. There is actually a rather large range of acceptable flow rates as far as dinos are concerned. Let me know if you guys have any questions. Maybe I should convert to metric for reference too?

...It seems like a lot of people have sizing and flow rate issues or concerns with their UV sterilizer. I posted some guidelines for general use and the Jabao brand specifically, but here they are again in case anyone needs them.

UV Watts needed: 1 Watt or more for every 3 gallons. Example; a 100 gallon tank would need a 33W UV or more. 1 Watt for every 2 gallons would work faster, a 50W UV for a 100 gallon tank. There is no maximum for Wattage.

Flow Rate needed: Minimum of you tank volume (NOT actual water volume but tank volume) per hour. Maximum of 12 times your tank volume per hour. So a 100 gallon tank would need 100 gph to 1200 gph.

Again you want display tank volume not water volume. And only display tank need be used for calculations. The UV should draw from the display not the refugium. It's easier to just send the return line back to the display.

@mcarroll I think this would be valuable info for the first post. I can get you equations if you want, but I need to finish the fluid mechanics stuff we talked about earlier.

I think 180l/h is too slow and it will heat your water a lot

The power, or Watts, of the unit will determine the temperature rise of the tank not the flow rate through it. Think of it this way, you can add a lot of heat slowly with low flow, or you can add a little heat fast and continuously. The math works out to the same temperature rise either way.

 

[tonymacc]

@Bret Brinkmann So for me, tank approx 170l (45us gal) so 15w is about right or 22w, With flow of 45 to 540 us gal.?

 

[mcarroll]

@mcarroll I think this would be valuable info for the first post.

I think there's a mention of UV already so I'll get a link to the post you just made in around there somewhere. We can always add on later!

The math works out to the same temperature rise either way.

Thanks, First Law of Thermodynamics!

This is a good one for me since when LED's came out I was working in a LFS. Me and a fellow reef geek were pondering the claims of "cooler lighting" and so concocted an experiment....an LED strip sealed in a cardboard tube with a temperature sensor from an ordinary corded tank thermometer.

Lo and behold! The First Law held fast.....and then we fed the fish. ;Shamefullyembarrased;Shamefullyembarrased;Shamefullyembarrased

(cooler lighting needs to use fewer watts....or it's not really cooler)

 

[mcarroll]

Put a pretty major edit on the first post....let me know if anyone catches mistakes, omissions, etc. I kinda overran my editing time and gotta stop for now. Zzz.

 

[taricha]

Here are the guide lines for UV sizing and flow rate determination based off of a few manufacturers manuals and some reverse engineering. They all follow the same guidelines because they are all designed using the same equations. Someone long ago did the experiments to determine what the best UV dosage is for algae and viruses. Either flow rate range will work with dinos based on multiple people's experiences.

Thank you for this work!
What you said looks good, but 2 quick cautions.
1. These manufacturer recs are based on phytos and bacteria ~5 microns and below, not dinos over 60 microns.
2. When seeing what worked for people, we need to make sure we aren't just looking at ostreopsis cases, as they are most UV susceptible. But need to look at prorocentrum and coolia etc. They also go into the water, I believe not as much and I also think they are less susceptible to photo damage vs ostis.

 

[kecked]

I got coolia. It’s marginal for control. Ie uv. Helps but not a cure.

 

[miPapareef]

6 week update after implementing the recommendations in this tread (actually Feb 23rd is when I started dosing and UV). Just for history I have coolia and prorocentrum since July.

My tank loves phosphate and this chart shows the level that has brought a real decline in dinos! In July my PO4 dropped to zero and that's when I saw dino's take over. For the last 6 weeks, I've had the doser running and it took almost 2 weeks to get the level up to 0.1. After a month at that level the tank has never looked better. Of course there's some GHA growing and some green film algae on the glass but I am so glad to see green where it used to be only brown. I haven't had to dose any phosphate since March 26th and the level is staying up.

Here's a look at the nitrate. Never really had a problem as it's almost alwasy 5-7ppm. When I started dosing phosphate it lowered the nitrate so I had to dose it for the first week that I dosed phosephate.

In addition to the dosing, I added a Pentair Smart UV 40W plumbed in and out the return section of the sump and have run it 24/7. The flow rate through it is 170-200 gph.

Nothing was overnight change, more of a slow decline in dinos and after almost a month on 3/22/18, I couldn't see dino's. Here is the post from that day in this thread https://www.reef2reef.com/posts/4574950/

Over the last weeks, there are no visible dinos in the DT but they still show up on the surface of the macro algae in the sump. But even there they are less and less each week. Also if I look with the microscope, I can still find them on every surface in the DT.

I can't really answer the question above about if UV is needed because I added both UV and dosing at the same time. Because I saw a more gradual change, I suspect its more about maintaining stable level of elevated nutrients.

 

[Bebow]

Bad news! Dino’s are back! They have infested the branch’s of a pocillipora that almost died when my tank went south in January. This coral was almost a foot across but suffered RTN from all the swings in my tank when I was fighting dinos. The plan was to frag off the tips and restart it. Today I noticed the telltale signs off bubbles and some mucus strings. I had amphidinium before but some of these are different. What are they? UV maybe?
Tank is currently NO3 15ppm, PO4 .40 ppm, silicate is at 1 ppm but dosed to increase. The tank is using up silicate at a pretty fast rate with a good population of diatoms.
In the last week the only thing I have added is silicate. Edit, I did run GFO for a few to try and bring PO4 down, it was at .60 ppm but took it back off line day before yesterday. Could that be the cause?
This is turning into a never ending war!

 

[kecked]

Thanks for the update. My dinos in the DT are pretty much in the sand andon the glass. Coolia here as well. Been about a month with uv and raised nutrients. Got a doser now for alk and ca too. So my tank is finally near stable. It is encouraging to hear success in getting rid of them.

While it’s a pain, maybe This is more normal than not and we are finally having an actual reef rather than a pseudo reef. Well at least that’s what I’m telling myself so I feel better!

 

[Bret Brinkmann]

@Bret Brinkmann So for me, tank approx 170l (45us gal) so 15w is about right or 22w, With flow of 45 to 540 us gal.?

Yes, those numbers should do it. Although you will see faster results with the 22W.

...(cooler lighting needs to use fewer watts....or it's not really cooler)

Interesting that you mention this. UV sterilizers are typically rated in Watts of input power not how many Watts of UV light the bulb creates. The conversion of electrical energy to light energy is not 100% efficient. The loss of energy during conversion is usually in the form of heat generation. Although nearly all light energy will eventually be transferred to heat or thermal energy anyway. A few manufacturers actually listed their light Watts in addition to the power input Watts. So it would be possible to calculate efficiency. The differences in efficiency are why I believe different manufacturers have different tank size and flow rate recommendations for their units of same power input Watts rating.

Thank you for this work!
What you said looks good, but 2 quick cautions.
1. These manufacturer recs are based on phytos and bacteria ~5 microns and below, not dinos over 60 microns.
2. When seeing what worked for people, we need to make sure we aren't just looking at ostreopsis cases, as they are most UV susceptible. But need to look at prorocentrum and coolia etc. They also go into the water, I believe not as much and I also think they are less susceptible to photo damage vs ostis.

Both great points. Most of the cases I read about were ostreopsis but a few others were mixed in. Can't remember the exact species off hand. But that is part of the reason why I recommend not getting the minimum Watts or the maximum flow. The 0.5W per gallon does seem to be a better size for the lower quality brands. But I feel I can't say not to either because there are several examples that have proven to be effective.

 

[kecked]

Remind me why is vibrant a bad option? Does it not outcompete the Dino’s? What kind of bacteria is it tha is so strong it kills everything? Anybody ever look to see?

Ps my chemicleaned tank has dinos back in less than 24 hours. Might get my control tank back after all.

Anybody know what chemiclean is made of? Erythromycin cetyl chloride. Never mind.