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sorry for late confirmation. This is indeed prorocentrum. The video clarifies where the earlier pictures didn't.Spreading to the rocks a lot more now but it still looks like the same type posted previously. Here's another video that might be a little better. They are very symmetrical with a circle in the center. Almost perfect ovals and sometimes more of a circle when they move. I don't see any beak or point on them. And they move slower than a lot of the other microscope ID's I have seen, somtimes not moving at all.
Thanks for confirmation. I've been proceeding as if they are prorocentrum. I should have taken some pictures before I moved forward but it got so much worse after my initial post. Sand was entirely covered in slime and it was spreading quickly onto rocks.sorry for late confirmation. This is indeed prorocentrum. The video clarifies where the earlier pictures didn't.
Die-off, yes - but also you basically cut off the uptake of PO4 by photosynthetic organisms of all types.Maybe the die off from the blackout let the nutrients go up?
There are a number of variables that determine how toxic a dino outbreak can be.I guess I've been lucky so far. I haven't lost any fish, snails, shrimp, or hermits. And corals are doing OK with a few exceptions.
I'm an advocate for it. It seems to be harmless, does not require a change in P or N, and Si just creates an opportunity for diatom cells to grow using up the same goodies that dino cells need.I've seen some newer advice on dosing silicates for diatoms to outcompete dinos. What are your thoughts on that?
Water changes sparingly can be ok if they don't noticeably increase Dino growth. I wouldn't use GFO at all with dinos. I would use an aluminum PO4 binder instead of an Iron one. The Fe seems to be helpful to dinos in a way that Aluminum likely isn't.Also, if my phosphates keep climbing, at what point should I consider a WC or running gfo?
Phyto, dead organic material from UV/blackout, and lack of PO4 uptake by photosynthetic organisms during the blackout, and now you whacked the photosynthetic population way back.Not sure why [PO4 is] going up so quickly.
Thanks for all the input and info, really appreciate it. Going to keep doing what I'm doing and start dosing spongexcel on Friday once it comes.I'm an advocate for it. It seems to be harmless, does not require a change in P or N, and Si just creates an opportunity for diatom cells to grow using up the same goodies that dino
This sort of thing is done a lot, but a combo of phyto + bacteria + UV is not something I understand why it might work. Seems like a large input of dead organic material. Kinda what we try to avoid during a nuisance battle.Still dosing mb7 and waste away everyday. Also dosing phyto every night. Running UV all day except for 5-6 hours after I dose bacteria. Starting to wonder if UV is working (or hurting) because the sand doesn't clear up at night like it was at the beginning.
This is definitely a good sign. Increased snail appetite indicates more diatoms and that the snails can graze while ingesting less dino toxin. One effect of dino toxin is to greatly reduce snail activity.Dosed spongexcel for 4 weeks at 1 drop/gallon and never really saw much of a diatom bloom so I bought a silicate checker and realized i need to be dosing twice that so I'm now dosing 2 drops/gallon every day and I'm finally seeing diatoms on glass, rocks and most importantly previously dino dominated sand. Snails are cleaning spots they hadn't been in a long time, including sand.
All positive signs. feel free to accelerate the process by manually exporting any brown gunk you see.I'm seeing a lot more diversity and things are looking a lot better. Still seeing a lot of dinos but much less dense and cyano/diatoms mixed in. It's actually hard to even get a sample for microscope because there is no "snot" at all anymore.
You are correct. It's a ciliate, probably a large euplotes. Here's a more detailed video of this type from my sandbed system.It still looks like I'm dealing exclusively with Prorocentrum dinos but I noticed this dino-like thing under the microscrope today. Doesn't look like any of the other dino varieties and it's much larger so I'm thinking it's not a dino at all
Seems like a lot of the approaches start with bacteria + phyto + UV or some combination, I just wasn't sure at what point to stop any or all. Do you think it makes sense to stop adding bacteria or turn off UV and just see where things go with nutrient management and silicate dosing?This sort of thing is done a lot, but a combo of phyto + bacteria + UV is not something I understand why it might work. Seems like a large input of dead organic material. Kinda what we try to avoid during a nuisance battle.
@taricha sorry, me again. If it's counterproductive to be adding dead organic material via bottled bacteria, would it make sense to use live bacteria like pns probio? Are you familiar with any testing done here?This sort of thing is done a lot, but a combo of phyto + bacteria + UV is not something I understand why it might work. Seems like a large input of dead organic material. Kinda what we try to avoid during a nuisance battle.
I have not used or tested the PNS bacteria - they seem interesting. I'm unsure why we'd want to add N-fixing bacteria that could increase local N to work against nuisance growth. Seems like it could just as easily increase the amount of benthic growth (cyano, dinos, diatoms) by enriching N-depleted surfaces.live bacteria like pns probio? Are you familiar with any testing done here?
That makes sense when struggling to raise nitrates and keep them balanced. In my case, I've never had low (below 5ppm) nitrates and I've been stable at 10-12ppm for 2 months.I have not used or tested the PNS bacteria - they seem interesting. I'm unsure why we'd want to add N-fixing bacteria that could increase local N to work against nuisance growth. Seems like it could just as easily increase the amount of benthic growth (cyano, dinos, diatoms) by enriching N-depleted surfaces.
No worries there... These (Rhodopseudomonas and Rhodospirillum) and many other diazotrophs lose their ability to fix nitrogen when ammonia is present in the environment (a negative feedback termed "ammonia shut-off" or "ammonia switch-off"). Some researchers believe that at least in some species phosphate concentrations can affect this process to some extent, but essentially diazotrophs stop wasting energy fixing nitrogen if there's already a source at hand. Thus, they simultaneously promote low DIN and help to prevent an all-out nitrogen bottom-out.I have not used or tested the PNS bacteria - they seem interesting. I'm unsure why we'd want to add N-fixing bacteria that could increase local N to work against nuisance growth. Seems like it could just as easily increase the amount of benthic growth (cyano, dinos, diatoms) by enriching N-depleted surfaces.
@taricha Not even going to pretend to understand but wanted to share some anecdotal evidence...I stopped dosing MB7 and Waste-Away on 7/21 but continued daily silicate dosing. I never got full blown-snotty dinos again but I started to see dinos and bubbles on the sand again after about a week. I've gone back to daily dosing and things are back to progressing in the right direction. All of my snails are cleaning the sand at this point. I run the UV at night and turn it off for the day. And I dose bacteria and silicate in the AM.This sort of thing is done a lot, but a combo of phyto + bacteria + UV is not something I understand why it might work. Seems like a large input of dead organic material. Kinda what we try to avoid during a nuisance battle.