Do acid and bleach curing methods work better than natural cures? | BRStv Investigates

[Clay12340]

I don't think it removed any measurable amount of rock. But after a hosing off the rock looked 'clean' again - everything that had been growing on it just rinses off.

Didn't they say it weighed 25% less after an hour soaking in a 10:1 muriatic acid solution?

 

[revhtree]

Great topic!

 

[azbigjohn]

I appreciated the video and research. I am curious about one aspect, however.

When setting up my current tank, I used a bleach, then acid wash to remove unwanted pests and algae; I then placed in the tank, and started the cycle with a table shrimp. While I understand the benefits of curing, I wanted to ensure none of the pests I re-booted my tank to get rid of (Primarily aptasia) would survive to reappear in the tank.

I never considered bleach/acid washing to be part of the curing process; indeed, it is described as "rock reincarnation" in an article on the other forum.

 

[Ed Reefer]

Interesting. Newer to the reeling community, I am about to venture into curing my pukani rock. I like the bleaching method described in the video, but want to be sure I understand the methodology. Freshwater or saltwater with bleach? I am guessing fresh? And also, I am assuming RO/DI water is preferred to water from tap? For this method, is heated water preferred? And I am also assuming the water should be circulated with a pump, like all the other curing processes? Finally, based on the leveling off of the phosphate level, is it reasonable to cut back on the length of curing to 2-3 weeks?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm with you guys. Please don't use acid, ever. This is definitely a case of the least common denominator.

What are you talking about? Acid works very well, you just have to know what problem it is being used to eliminate. It is not intended to eliminate organics. It is intended to eliminate phosphate bound to calcium carbonate rock, especially rock that came from a high phosphate environment.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Interesting. Newer to the reeling community, I am about to venture into curing my pukani rock. I like the bleaching method described in the video, but want to be sure I understand the methodology. Freshwater or saltwater with bleach? I am guessing fresh? And also, I am assuming RO/DI water is preferred to water from tap? For this method, is heated water preferred? And I am also assuming the water should be circulated with a pump, like all the other curing processes? Finally, based on the leveling off of the phosphate level, is it reasonable to cut back on the length of curing to 2-3 weeks?

All these treatments should be in fresh water.

For the life of me, I can't really understand this experiment. You do not want to leave the rock soaking in high phosphate water. You either keep replacing the water, or you put something in it like lanthanum or GFO to keep pulling more and more phosphate off the rock.

 

[tgionet]

Didn't they say it weighed 25% less after an hour soaking in a 10:1 muriatic acid solution?

That may have little to no effect on the volume though

 

[cap232]

yes please try the lanthanum chloride in to the experiment

 

[Hunter VanMiddlesworth]

I would also like to see lanthanum chloride tested.http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2049855

 

[flagg37]

All these treatments should be in fresh water.

For the life of me, I can't really understand this experiment. You do not want to leave the rock soaking in high phosphate water. You either keep replacing the water, or you put something in it like lanthanum or GFO to keep pulling more and more phosphate off the rock.

I agree. I'm guessing that the variations in the results are due to the rock cycling through absorbing or leaching the po4. The difference between the week 1 and week 7 are at most .12 and as low as .03 (iirc). I think the only thing that can really be deduced from this experiment is how well the rock was cleaned by the process prior to being added to the container it sat in for the 7 weeks.

That may have little to no effect on the volume though

If there's 25% of the rock and organics that are dissolved by the acid then it's sure to effect the volume.

 

[flagg37]

I think there's two aspects to the process of curing rocks. First is to kill all the hitchhikers and organics, and the second is to remove them. This is why I'm not a fan of the natural method. There are some very hearty pests out there that I want to be sure are dead. What is supposed to kill these things in the natural method? Yes, the more complex organisms will die of starvation but as one thing dies it becomes food for something else. This is where I think the bleach and acid excel. Both will kill anything organic then the next concern is removing them from the rock. Doing a heavy rinse will remove most of the dead organics.

After this, it's my opinion that, soaking the rock in SW can then start the biological cycling process. Include something like the GFO that has been recommended to continue to pull out the po4 or do waterchanges.

 

[don_chuwish]

Didn't they say it weighed 25% less after an hour soaking in a 10:1 muriatic acid solution?

That was muriatic acid, I was using just diluted vinegar. No rock was harmed.

 

[Clay12340]

That was muriatic acid, I was using just diluted vinegar. No rock was harmed.

Sure it was. The reason vinegar works is the acetic acid in it. It's going to react with bases just like muriatic acid. The most prevalent base in RO water and rock is likely going to be calcium carbonate. Some portion of it is going to be dissolved away. The amount is going to be a product of strength of the acid available and contact time. Muriatic acid is likely a much stronger acid and is probably sold in higher concentrations, so the reaction is more violent.

Basically, what I was considering was just several vinegar soaks over a longer period of time to see if I could dissolve away a bit of the rock and make it more to my liking. Muriatic acid would be easier, but is considerably more dangerous. I also think buying it in any quantity puts me on some sort of meth maker list in Indiana according to the guy at the pool store I spoke with.

 

[James Kanouff]

Great work BRS TEAM. I have done the combo method. It works.
And I have two 50 gallon barrels of old left over break down system filthy with "200+ n02 off the charts p04 "rocks that have been getting water changes with water change water for literally years. In the end the time frame you have to work with probably will drive the choice.
I expected results that matched what you found.
I have also used a Sulphur denitrator, on one barrel of rock, to test the denitrator. Man can they eat n03.
They do not effect p04. only no3. which provides insights on bacteria's effect on the associated levels of nutrients.
In the end capture n remove is what you need to do.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have also used a Sulphur denitrator, on one barrel of rock, to test the denitrator. Man can they eat n03.
They do not effect p04. only no3. which provides insights on bacteria's effect on the associated levels of nutrients.
In the end capture n remove is what you need to do.

The bacteria in a sulfur denitrator are breaking down nitrate (and sulfur) for energy, as well as a source of N, so they are very imbalanced toward mostly nitrate reduction with a little phosphate uptake..

But other bacteria, such as aerobic bacteria consuming organics use a much more balanced ratio of nitrate and phosphate.

 

[Fitzty]

Might be a dumb question but here goes. Can you leave your pump in while doing a 15 to 1 bleach soak? Heater?

 

[Bdog4u2]

I'm curing a bunch of Fiji rock for my son's next tank now. I've had this rock for almost 20 years but it's been dry for over 10 years. I have it in a trash can with sea water with chaeto and a 250 watt mh. I've harvested big balls off it a few times. it's been soaking with boat loads of flow for around 10 weeks. the rock got really ugly the first few weeks and I did several wc's then the ugly slimy look went away and now the coraline algae is spreading from the old cured rock to the new.
I'm still a ways from setting the next one up so this rock will be soaking for a few more months

 

[reefknight]

After having substantial algae issues with my system, I'm going to tear it down and re cure all of the rock. Considering using the acid/ bleach method to remove the most amount of organics in the rock. Most of this rock has been with me in various tanks for about 11-12yrs. Seems like I'm chasing my tail with algae issues and not enjoying the system do to constant problem solving.

Acid washing about 150-180lbs of rock in a 100g Rubbermaid stock tank at a 20:1 ratio. Following it up with a 10:1 bleach soak for a week. Test and change the water with Hanna PO4 checker meter and RO water. Considering using Brightwells version of lanthum chloride as an additional PO4 remover. ( I already have this on hand) I have a space outside where I can do the acid wash with no issue. Has anyone conducted the bleach soak in their garage? I would cover the stock tank with plastic as it doesn't have a lid. I don't have a spot outside that I feel comfortable leaving it unattended.
Any other thoughts or suggestions that one would make if you were to do this? Of course, safety precautions will be taken while using chemicals and the acid will be neutralized with sodium bicarbonate before discarding.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Greaps]

I soaked like 10lbs in the garage in a 1/4 bleach to water bucket for 6 days with no smells or issues.

 

[Flytekk]

Im currently on day 2 of 10:1 bleach on pukani. After this is done i have 1 gallon of muriatic acid that i will pour into my 42g brute holding the pukani. I understand thats not even 10:1 but i only have 1 gallon and i want to get rid of it. Questions are....

1)Do i really have to soak in bleach 10:1 for a week, or even 2-3 weeks as BRS would like to try? I have heard many people bleach for only a day. Some 2-3 days.

2) Given my diluted muriatic acid, should i keep the acid bath going for more than 15 minutes to compensate? I really dont want to lose so much rock so i figured 15 minutes with less acid concentration would be a happy medium.