Do manufacturers have any responsibility for the malfunction of their devices?

[Brett S]

So this question came from this post that has been moved to the vendor feedback forum:

Do manufacturers have any responsibility for the malfunction of their devices?

I would like to share my case with you to know your opinion and inform you of the practices of Neptune Systems. It all started in July of this year, I had changed the Balling formula and used a component to raise the alkalinity with a very high pH. It was ideal because the aquarium tended to...

www.reef2reef.com

I understand why the post has been moved and I’m not trying to circumvent forum rules by reposting this here, but I think @AlbertGF asks a very interesting and relevant question that merits some discussion that can’t be done in the vendor feedback forum.

I’m hoping we that we can discuss that question here in a more generic sense, rather than relating this specifically to albert’s story or to a specific vendor.

So the question is, if a product fails and causes a tank crash it can easily cause the loss of thousands of dollars of livestock and countless hours of work. Does the product manufacturer ever have any responsibility to cover those damages or does the manufacturer‘s responsibility end at replacing the faulty product under warranty, assuming it is still covered by warranty?

Taking this further, do we, as aquarists, have any other options to protect ourselves financially from a situation such as this? Is this something homeowners or renters insurance might cover? Perhaps with a specific rider for the aquarium?

 

[tehmadreefer]

No. If you have a problem and can afford it, take it to the courts. Plain and simple lol

 

[Brett S]

No. If you have a problem and can afford it, take it to the courts. Plain and simple lol

But taking it to the courts would imply that the manufacture does have some responsibility, and frankly I’m not entirely sure whether they do or not. I don’t know that even if a case was brought to court if it would be ruled in favor of the aquarist either.

I can really see this question from both sides. With margins as tight as they are I don’t know that manufactures could afford to cover tank losses caused by malfunctioning products. Making them take responsibility would either cause prices to skyrocket or would put them into bankruptcy.

But on the other side, we as aquarists, expect products to work and be reliable and it doesn’t seem right for companies to put out junk that fails left and right and causes expensive tank crashes. It seems like there should be some accountability there.

But I don’t know where that line needs to be drawn. Maybe I’m just overthinking this.

 

[Sleeping Giant]

Just because it's expensive doesn't necessarily mean it's better. Especially in saltwater aquariums.
I see this day in and day out on R2R, all these supposedly "high-end" units failing over and over, with no help from the vendor or principal company.

I see it with lights, pumps, skimmers, Neptune/ Apex units. At the end of the day most of these are made in the same place as your iPhone, China. They may say it's made in the USA, but don't be fooled by that jargon, the USA only needs 60% done in their country to brand it as "Made in America". So in basic terms, the electrical engineering and manufacturing can be done in China=40%, so component covering, painting, decalling, administration and management fees can =60% easily.

 

[tehmadreefer]

But taking it to the courts would imply that the manufacture does have some responsibility, and frankly I’m not entirely sure whether they do or not. I don’t know that even if a case was brought to court if it would be ruled in favor of the aquarist either.

I can really see this question from both sides. With margins as tight as they are I don’t know that manufactures could afford to cover tank losses caused by malfunctioning products. Making them take responsibility would either cause prices to skyrocket or would put them into bankruptcy.

But on the other side, we as aquarists, expect products to work and be reliable and it doesn’t seem right for companies to put out junk that fails left and right and causes expensive tank crashes. It seems like there should be some accountability there.

But I don’t know where that line needs to be drawn. Maybe I’m just overthinking this.

Blah blah blah. Again if you have an issue take them to court IF YOU THINK they have some sort of responsibility. Maybe even try what frumpy does and take it to like a 100 courts lolol

 

[Sleeping Giant]

But taking it to the courts would imply that the manufacture does have some responsibility, and frankly I’m not entirely sure whether they do or not. I don’t know that even if a case was brought to court if it would be ruled in favor of the aquarist either.

I can really see this question from both sides. With margins as tight as they are I don’t know that manufactures could afford to cover tank losses caused by malfunctioning products. Making them take responsibility would either cause prices to skyrocket or would put them into bankruptcy.

But on the other side, we as aquarists, expect products to work and be reliable and it doesn’t seem right for companies to put out junk that fails left and right and causes expensive tank crashes. It seems like there should be some accountability there.

But I don’t know where that line needs to be drawn. Maybe I’m just overthinking this.

I don't think there is any insurance or court proceedings that would work.

At the end of day we all want good products and for some of the astronomical prices of the products being sold, they are deserved

There should at a minimum have 2-3 year warranties, especially for "high-end" products.

 

[Tamberav]

No they are not responsible for the aquariums inhabitants or loss related. Like if a heater gets stuck on or a pump fails when out of town. Most of the time there is a way to have a backup plan except in catastrophic failures such as tanks blowing out.

I believe you can get homeowner insurance to cover the damage to a house if the aquarium leaks.

I do think one year warranty is bleh on such expensive stuff but pretty sure my new phone only has one year too so I guess it’s all the same.

 

[Sleeping Giant]

As far as livestock issues, that would be completely your problem, I just hope we learn from our mistakes and help out the next hobbiest in need of an opinion.

 

[Big C]

Equipment will fail. I work in an industry where we complete risk analysis. We know that our million dollar control systems can and will fail at some point. This failure could be due to equipment failure, human (error, programming, installation, etc.), unknown or unidentified process conditions, maintenance or upkeep. In the end we need to evaluate what kind if risks we are willing to take and how much redundancy are willing to design/install.

This is hobby grade equipment, not pharmaceutical or nuclear grade stuff. Yes, we should be pushing the industry to continually to improve, innovate and supply these at a reasonable price. If we want the manufacturers to be responsible for both the equipment and any type of loss associated be prepared to pay the price. Not to say they are responsible for supplying safe equipment but at some point it would be cost prohibitive for them (minus a situation where a vendor knowingly).

You can probably find someone to insure the aquarium and everything in it but again I'm sure you would need to go to several companies to find out and then the cost associated with it.

My thoughts, KISS, keep it simple or add multiple layers of redundancy because IT WILL FAIL at some point.

 

[joseserrano]

I think the biggest slap in the face here is Neptune agreeing to do something (admitting fault), then ignoring.

 

[Justanano]

Biggest slap in the face is asking for opinions and getting silenced.. if it was a thread of praise and compliments it would still be open

 

[newfly]

I work in customer support forever. I have not seen any company responsible for all the damage due to their product failure. It’s just not realistic as the liability is sky high. There must be some sort of disclaimer on limited warranty noted in the product itself.

think about this. If you sell a $100 pump, and you could be liable for $10,000 damages if the pump fail. How long can you stay In business? Any component do fail . There is no such thing as fail proof product.

I expect manufacturer to stand by their product; replace or repair the product within the warranty period.

just my 2 cents

 

[ReefBeta]

But taking it to the courts would imply that the manufacture does have some responsibility, and frankly I’m not entirely sure whether they do or not. I don’t know that even if a case was brought to court if it would be ruled in favor of the aquarist either.

I can really see this question from both sides. With margins as tight as they are I don’t know that manufactures could afford to cover tank losses caused by malfunctioning products. Making them take responsibility would either cause prices to skyrocket or would put them into bankruptcy.

But on the other side, we as aquarists, expect products to work and be reliable and it doesn’t seem right for companies to put out junk that fails left and right and causes expensive tank crashes. It seems like there should be some accountability there.

But I don’t know where that line needs to be drawn. Maybe I’m just overthinking this.

Whether it make sense on the court is probably a question for the lawyer. It's too much a legal professional question that I think we can give a definitely answer.

 

[CMMorgan]

I think we have become too litigious of a society. Short of a tank literally blowing out, full tank failures would be a result of multiple factors. In the case of a previous post, overdosing on an additive could have been addressed by a dramatic water change. Adding in another additive could have been the death knell to the the tank. There is simply no way to know for sure. If a thermometer goes wild, there can be a controller or an alarm to react. Power failure - battery backup. Etc Etc Etc
It's not always about what bad thing happens, it is also about redundancy and how we react.
It's like the people who buy those Tesla's that can drive themselves... if they decide to take a nap and a semi truck swerves at them.... is that Tesla's fault?
We have a responsibility to monitor and maintain any part of our tank. These may be fish and coral but we are custodians of those lives. The manufacturer is responsible for building a proper product. If it fails, they have a responsibility to warranty it for a reasonable amount of time to rule out manufacturer defects. Beyond that, this equipment is subject to very harsh and moist conditions beyond the manufacturers control. . We have a responsibility to use it properly, maintain it and not put faulty equipment into service.
Bad things will happen... no one benefits from going to court unless a vendor sends a product to market that they knew would cause harm. I doubt anyone here would accuse any of the reef vendors of willful neglect.
Just my humble opinion...

 

[Crustaceon]

I believe a manufacturer is only going to be responsible for their product working as advertised. If you drop your light in your tank and it electrocutes everything, that’s on you. If one of their mounts fails though and causes the light to fall into the tank, that’s because there’s a reasonable expectation for this to not happen. Then comes the question of whether or not the manufacturer recommended the use of a tank lid while using their product...

 

[CMMorgan]

I believe a manufacturer is only going to be responsible for their product working as advertised. If you drop your light in your tank and it electrocutes everything, that’s on you. If one of their mounts fails though and causes the light to fall into the tank, that’s because there’s a reasonable expectation for this to not happen. Then comes the question of whether or not the manufacturer recommended the use of a tank lid while using their product...

Yikes, I have had nightmares about that. I'm always afraid that if I touch a light, it will just fall in. I unplug my lights before I touch them. Redundant... annoying but I do not want to be electrocuted.

 

[Tyler Flynn]

Correct me if i’m wrong, but sweden has made manufacturers responsible for making their products longer lasting, or more easily (and cost efficiently) repairable.
Does not make them responsible for failures, but they are essential on the hook for disposal fees when they do break prematurely.
I would have to look that up again to be sure

 

[flsalty]

Hmmmmm...I'm probably going to open a can of worms nobody has mentioned yet.

I think manufacturers should only be responsible for their equipment, provided it was being used properly. Responsibility for the whole system lies with us. We should have a contingency plan for failure of every piece of equipment. We should regularly check equipment to make sure it's in working order. We definitely shouldn't be installing equipment that we know is not in working order.

Components fail, especially electronics. No slam on techies, but I see way too many systems that are so automated that the reefer barely has to do anything. Very convenient, but also sets it up for a catastrophic failure. I know, I know, I'm old. People said the same thing about internal combustion engines, etc, but this is why I prefer to interact with my display and equipment daily. IMO, nothing is "set it and forget it" in this hobby.

 

[ca1ore]

I think we have become too litigious of a society.

Maybe so. Bigger problem seems to be that too many don’t take personal responsibility for stuff and are looking for somebody else to blame. Just about all manufacturers will warranty equipment against failure, but not the knock-on effect of that failure. I can recall threads where tanks have failed, but getting the tank maker to also compensate for other losses and damage usually requires litigation. I suspect most people don’t bother.

Auto dosing IS risky. You are relying on hobby grade equipment to not fail. There are countless examples of tank crashes as a result. I think you take your chances if you do it. That’s why I have layers or redundancy in my tanks and try to avoid too many points of control. I prefer monitoring to controlling.

 

[Tyler Flynn]

This is well said. The manufacturer can only be held liable for their own product for a predetermined amount of time.
You do need to be responsible for the proper maintenance of your own system to avoid catastrophic failure.
Buying quality proven equipment helps to mitigate the risk factors

Hmmmmm...I'm probably going to open a can of worms nobody has mentioned yet.

I think manufacturers should only be responsible for their equipment, provided it was being used properly. Responsibility for the whole system lies with us. We should have a contingency plan for failure of every piece of equipment. We should regularly check equipment to make sure it's in working order. We definitely shouldn't be installing equipment that we know is not in working order.

Components fail, especially electronics. No slam on techies, but I see way too many systems that are so automated that the reefer barely has to do anything. Very convenient, but also sets it up for a catastrophic failure. I know, I know, I'm old. People said the same thing about internal combustion engines, etc, but this is why I prefer to interact with my display and equipment daily. IMO, nothing is "set it and forget it" in this hobby.