Do we really know anything about ich?!

Kware0112

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I've read up on this a LOT. Supposedly, if your dt does not have ich AND your new fish was properly quarantined and treated, then there is no way ich can be present. Right? If your new fish gets ich in the dt, then the dt had ich. Right. Supposedly no fish is immune to ich. So if the fish in dt did not show ich, then how did the new fish get ich if said fish was in quarantine with copper treatment for 6 weeks? Here's the whole deal. In my dt I have two clowns, a banghaii cardinal, purple firefish, yellow watchman goby, and hoevens wrasse. None of which have ever shown signs of ich. The clowns and cardinal I've had for over a year, wrasse and ywg for 9 months and firefish for 3 months. I work at a fish store and had my eye on a powder blue tang. I watched one for over a week and never saw a spot on it. Took it home and put it in quarantine with copper just to be safe. Kept the copper at optimal levels with a test kit. It did wonderful and ate great. Never saw one spot on it. After 5 weeks I put it in dt. Now after about a month it has white spots. So my question now is. HOW?! If everything I've been told is true, then this fish pulled off a miracle and got ich from the air. I don't want to hear about ich magnets, because if all the facts are true, then ich has to be present to get it. Any ideas? I think we as a hobby just don't really know jack about this nuisance.


Mike Hayes
 
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navila06

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ima knock on wood cause about 3 weeks ago my blue tang was covered moderatly with white spots, I uped his food intake, made sure water conditions were optimal as I could get, and raised the temp up a few °'s and he is now spot free, I did not add anything in the tank for months, then all of a sudden showed up with these spots. I have no idea how he got it but I am thankfull he recovered(of course knock on wood). Nothing else in the tank showed any signs of white spots.
 

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Welcome to the wonderful world of C. Irritans!

The most common place to find C. Irritans is the gills, which you can't see. Copper is only effective during the trophont stage of the parasite, you were at 5 weeks, which is 1 week short of the minimum known gestation period, and 3 weeks shy of the longest. You were ALMOST there.... with a Powder Blue, I would have suggested a QT of at least 10 weeks, just due to the "Ick Magnet" that they are. ;)
 

SeahorseKeeper

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What if there are strains of ich that are resistant to copper?
 

Reefing Madness

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I've been through the same thing the OP did. You can't get rid of it. They can even carry it like a virus, never get it, but are able to pass it along. Stress free and fed well, thats all I can say. My dumb Hippo still gets it from time to time, if I mess up the tank enough to tick her off. Reason, your never getting rid of it, if the fish is healthy enough, its not going to take over the fish, but is still able to survive.
 

bct15

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Your other fish could have been carrying it but not showing it, I'd just feed the tang well and let the tang fight it off on its own.


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Kware0112

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You forget I also watched this fish at work for at least a week. It may have been two, I can't remember. Also, experts say it can't lay dormant. They also say it DOES NOT come and go. YET, many people report it does. Which is it?! With all the marine biologists and scientists and labs and huge public aquariums with large staff dedicated to these sorts of things, how do we not have our facts straight after all these years?!


Mike Hayes
 
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Kware0112

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Bct, "supposedly" no fish is immune. Some can fight it off longer, but all fall victim eventually. You would think with my other fish being in dt as long as they have that they would have showed it by now.


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bct15

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It comes and goes, I have seen if myself. I have a powder blue, quarantined it for 10 weeks, put it in the display, three days later it had spots. Caught it quarantined for 4 weeks put it back in display and three days later it ja spots. Left in display, Fed twice a day, soaked food in garlic once every two days, it was gone in about four days to a week. No other fish showed any signs. I have seen my yellow belly blue tang show some specs on face every once and a while. When I first added the yellow belly blue it showed specs in face and fins, I just did the same as my powder blue and it went away really fast. I also use a uv sterilizer which a lot of tanks with PBT use, not sure if that makes a difference to you.

Also, I didn't say your fish were immune. I said they might have been infected and not showing signs...big difference.


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Reefing Madness

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It comes and goes, I have seen if myself. I have a powder blue, quarantined it for 10 weeks, put it in the display, three days later it had spots. Caught it quarantined for 4 weeks put it back in display and three days later it ja spots. Left in display, Fed twice a day, soaked food in garlic once every two days, it was gone in about four days to a week. No other fish showed any signs. I have seen my yellow belly blue tang show some specs on face every once and a while. When I first added the yellow belly blue it showed specs in face and fins, I just did the same as my powder blue and it went away really fast. I also use a uv sterilizer which a lot of tanks with PBT use, not sure if that makes a difference to you.

Also, I didn't say your fish were immune. I said they might have been infected and not showing signs...big difference.


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ca2or

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I know uv sterilizers work miracles

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46gReef

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It is also possible to introduce ich to your system via LR & corals, so if you have added anything it is possible cysts were introduced.
 

Aquaph8

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What if there are strains of ich that are resistant to copper?

This is becoming more and more common. Just like the cold/flu viruses in humans these parasites mutate and new ways of treating them have to be used. Quinine sulphate has worked wonders for me in this department. Ive had fish go through 5-6 weeks of copper with no change.
 

GrahamR

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I've read up on this a LOT. Supposedly, if your dt does not have ich AND your new fish was properly quarantined and treated, then there is no way ich can be present. Right? If your new fish gets ich in the dt, then the dt had ich. Right. Supposedly no fish is immune to ich. So if the fish in dt did not show ich, then how did the new fish get ich if said fish was in quarantine with copper treatment for 6 weeks? Here's the whole deal. In my dt I have two clowns, a banghaii cardinal, purple firefish, yellow watchman goby, and hoevens wrasse. None of which have ever shown signs of ich. The clowns and cardinal I've had for over a year, wrasse and ywg for 9 months and firefish for 3 months. I work at a fish store and had my eye on a powder blue tang. I watched one for over a week and never saw a spot on it. Took it home and put it in quarantine with copper just to be safe. Kept the copper at optimal levels with a test kit. It did wonderful and ate great. Never saw one spot on it. After 5 weeks I put it in dt. Now after about a month it has white spots. So my question now is. HOW?! If everything I've been told is true, then this fish pulled off a miracle and got ich from the air. I don't want to hear about ich magnets, because if all the facts are true, then ich has to be present to get it. Any ideas? I think we as a hobby just don't really know jack about this nuisance.


Mike Hayes

Hi there,

Just curious about where you've been getting your information? Is it from forums? I've been told and have come across a lot of things in various forum posts that are not really correct when concerning C. irritans. If I'm trying to definitively find out if what I've read in a forum post is true, I like to do a search using a search engine like google scholar or pub med. Just follow up information concerning a treatment technique or whatever it is with something from a (hopefully) reviewed source of information (academic journal, book, etc). If you can't get access to an article, public libraries and university libraries maintain subscriptions to many of these journals and sources of info.

Here are a few helpful articles that I like to refer to and should be available for access. You might have seen these in your searches.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA16400.pdf (This one offers a great review of the life cycle and details methods of control, etc)
http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/1/d001p019.pdf
(This is the original paper that we model our hyposalinity treatment protocol after)

And advanced aquarist had a nice 5 part (I think) article about C. irritans.
 

navila06

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I used a UV sterilizer for years, and didn't have the visual effects of ich show up, I recently removed the sterilizer, 3 weeks later ich on my blue tang...i don't have any proof that removing the uv sterilizer had anything to do with the outbreak.

I know uv sterilizers work miracles

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Eggs

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I've been through the same thing the OP did. You can't get rid of it. They can even carry it like a virus, never get it, but are able to pass it along. Stress free and fed well, thats all I can say.

I completely agree...a healthy fish and it's immune system.

I had a 180g FOWLR and had a Powder Blue Tang that developed ich, as well as a Longnose Butterfly also contracted it. Removed them from tank and none of the other remaining fish ever developed ich - that tanked remained up and running with fish for many years without an ich issue.

I've seen numerous posts where a fish had developed ich, without the hobbyist adding anything to the tank for a long period of time. Generally speaking, it happened after a stressful event to the tank.
 
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Kware0112

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Again, you guys are giving first hand experiances that contradict all the rules. So from what I am seeing now, there is nothing to do. Why quarantine then?


Mike Hayes
 

GrahamR

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Again, you guys are giving first hand experiances that contradict all the rules. So from what I am seeing now, there is nothing to do. Why quarantine then?


Mike Hayes

Why would you not quarantine? I have cured 3 fish that are stocked in our tanks now through quarantine with hyposalinity + formalin baths followed by 100% water changes in our 20 gallon quarantine system. And I also made sure that my tanks remained fallow (fishless) for at least 6-8 weeks to account for the death of any encysted tomont stages that were on the rock or substrate. I am 100% confident that my tank is free of the parasite because of our strict quarantine process of anything (with the exception of frozen foods) that is introduced into our tank. Corals, live rock, invertebrates, etc are all quarantined in a separate 10 gallon system without fish for at least 6-8 weeks. Without a fish host, the parasite will not be able to survive because it is an obligate pathogen and MUST have a fish host to survive. The introduction of this parasite into a system is through lack of proper quarantine and poor husbandry decisions. I have made the mistake first hand so I don't feel bad saying that. When I first started my tank, I purchased a damsel and immediately put it in without quarantining. I next placed our porcupine pufferfish in with the damsel and a few days later he was covered in Cryptocaryon.

Quarantining makes me feel at ease because I don't have to worry about potential fish losses due to Cryptocaryon if some stressing event (fluctuation in temp, fish territoriality, other infections) that might make a subclinical infection manifest as a clinical one. And it is my belief that it is the individual hobbyist's responsibility to quarantine their fish and ensure their well being.... especially when so many are wild caught.
 

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