Do you consider a water change to be an effective type of aquarium filtration method?

Do you consider a "water change" to be an effective type of aquarium filtration method?

  • Yes

    Votes: 361 67.6%
  • No

    Votes: 114 21.3%
  • Not sure

    Votes: 39 7.3%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 20 3.7%

  • Total voters
    534

pledosophy

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It’s certainly fair to have the opinion that if a filter method is not going to get you all the way to your goal, that it is not effective. I just do not share it.

In reefkeeping, we often use several methods at once, partly because none is perfect and they can complement each other in our attainment of many simultaneous goals.

In my reef system I used macroalgae growth in a refugium at night, large rock filled refugia, skimming, vinegar dosing, GAC, water changes by AWC, and GFO.

All of those, except perhaps the GFO, tend to lower nitrate. My final nitrate value was determined by all of them (plus ordinary organism consumption and food inputs).

Does it make them ineffective because none by themselves would have attained my goal?
IME I used the same filtration methods as you, minus the water changes over a 4 year period. When I moved I had to tear down that tank. It was filled with large SPS and some LPS corals that had grown from frags. I did not use GFO continuously and at times I did have to dose nitrate and phosphate since they would bottom out. I also prefer Vodka to vinegar. So some differences, but we employed many of the same methods.

IME if we remove the water changes from what you were doing for filtration, you can still have great results in a reef tank. That experience while anecdotal, is shared by thousands of reefers today who practice things like the Triton method or Moonshiner methods.

It is true we don't know what effect the DOM's or POM's had on my system, that is an unknown; but as far as I know it is also unknown how long it takes for DOM levels to rise to a high enough density to cause problems. I know at the time you publishes the article on DOM's that time tables were undetermined. Has that changed since publication? You mentioned Boston MACNA, that was a long time ago. Hopefully we know more? It would be interesting to read.

What makes the water change ineffective as a filter in my beliefs/experience is that if we remove one of the eight methods of filtration you and I used, that hundreds, if not thousands of reefers have reported their tanks do better. Sure there are other factors, mostly the use of ICP tests and hobbyists ability and knowledge to dose specific elements because of that testing; but the tanks still do great without the water changes.

I don't expect we are going to get much farther in this conversation so I will respectfully bow out, but I do want to thank you for having it with me; and sharing the articles you have written. I have learned a lot; and I do and have always appreciated your time.
 

Sral

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I've read the post and here is my simple view. My tank had 50 ppm Nitrates. I began doing 30 gallon weekly water changes on the system which is roughly 150 gallons total volume. In the last three months I've gotten the nitrates down to 10 ppm. I'm not sure how much of that is being produced weekly but at this point the nitrates are dropping on average 1.5 ppm every week.Here's my math ( 10 ppm Nitrates X4 = 40 ppm. Divide 40 by 5 = 8ppm? Based on changing 1/5 of the tanks water volume.) I understand that method is not 100% but just like other filtration methods, ie. socks, skimmers ,refugiums, etc. Each one takes a portion. Call it filtration or dilution which in my eyes based on the methods we use seem to be one and the same. If we use a skimmer we empty the cup. If we use socks they need to be removed and washed. Carbon needs to be replaced, GFO as well. If we grow Macro algae it too must harvested. Something has to come out. I haven't seen a self contained system that is able to run in a bubble long term. Just my .02

With your 20% weekly change you are at about 80% per month. According to @Randy Holmes-Farley 's guide here, I would expect you to almost reach equilibrium after about 60-80 days (about 5 times faster than 15% per month, as you exchange 5 times more per month). So 10ppm after 3 months (90 days) should very close to equilibrium. That gives a monthly net accumulation (without WC) of about 2ppm/week or 8ppm/month.
{equilibrium = accumulation/water change or:
accumulation = equilibrium*water change = 10ppm*20%/week = 2ppm/week}

Using the calculator link provided by @MnFish1 above with your values (150 gallon tank, 30 gallon changed weekly for 3 months = 12 WC and an initial concentration of 50ppm) you can play around a bit with the weekly accumulation to reach your reported 10ppm after 12 WCs. That gives about 1.8ppm accumulation per water change, e.g. 1.8ppm/week.
 

MnFish1

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IME I used the same filtration methods as you, minus the water changes over a 4 year period. When I moved I had to tear down that tank. It was filled with large SPS and some LPS corals that had grown from frags. I did not use GFO continuously and at times I did have to dose nitrate and phosphate since they would bottom out. I also prefer Vodka to vinegar. So some differences, but we employed many of the same methods.

IME if we remove the water changes from what you were doing for filtration, you can still have great results in a reef tank. That experience while anecdotal, is shared by thousands of reefers today who practice things like the Triton method or Moonshiner methods.

It is true we don't know what effect the DOM's or POM's had on my system, that is an unknown; but as far as I know it is also unknown how long it takes for DOM levels to rise to a high enough density to cause problems. I know at the time you publishes the article on DOM's that time tables were undetermined. Has that changed since publication? You mentioned Boston MACNA, that was a long time ago. Hopefully we know more? It would be interesting to read.

What makes the water change ineffective as a filter in my beliefs/experience is that if we remove one of the eight methods of filtration you and I used, that hundreds, if not thousands of reefers have reported their tanks do better. Sure there are other factors, mostly the use of ICP tests and hobbyists ability and knowledge to dose specific elements because of that testing; but the tanks still do great without the water changes.

I don't expect we are going to get much farther in this conversation so I will respectfully bow out, but I do want to thank you for having it with me; and sharing the articles you have written. I have learned a lot; and I do and have always appreciated your time.
One issue that a lot of people either don't realize - or ignore - is that large coral colonies also take up large amounts of nutrients - as compared to tanks with 6 finger sized frags. Soft corals (leathers, etc) can take up huge amounts of nutrients - but so can the others. IMHO - many people using Triton or other such methods tend to have more experience, more coral etc.
 

Viking_Reefing

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Straight up water changes to lower nitrates/phosphates? Nope.

Water changes by cleaning gunk out of the sandbed? Yeah, decent.

The main purpose of water changes, in my mind, is to get rid of built up pollutants. Some of which might not show up on ICP.
 

Sink_or_Swim

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I use a water change as an export mechanism. Siphon out detritus, suck out loose soft corals and little bits of tough to remove algae.

With a small tank(29 gallon) and the way I have designed the system, a occasional water change seems to help. Although I've been doing less frequent water changes to see how it effects my nutrient levels.
Same here with my 32 gallon. I honestly don't do water changes much at all (it's my least favorite aquarium chore, and I hardly ever did them on any of my planted freshwater tanks over the years). I do like to do one now and then after blowing off the rocks, sucking up roaming xenia babies, algae, etc - I'd rather not have all that stuff sucked right back into my filter pads and then have to change those immediately. So out with some water it goes!
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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IME I used the same filtration methods as you, minus the water changes over a 4 year period. When I moved I had to tear down that tank. It was filled with large SPS and some LPS corals that had grown from frags. I did not use GFO continuously and at times I did have to dose nitrate and phosphate since they would bottom out. I also prefer Vodka to vinegar. So some differences, but we employed many of the same methods.

IME if we remove the water changes from what you were doing for filtration, you can still have great results in a reef tank. That experience while anecdotal, is shared by thousands of reefers today who practice things like the Triton method or Moonshiner methods.

It is true we don't know what effect the DOM's or POM's had on my system, that is an unknown; but as far as I know it is also unknown how long it takes for DOM levels to rise to a high enough density to cause problems. I know at the time you publishes the article on DOM's that time tables were undetermined. Has that changed since publication? You mentioned Boston MACNA, that was a long time ago. Hopefully we know more? It would be interesting to read.

What makes the water change ineffective as a filter in my beliefs/experience is that if we remove one of the eight methods of filtration you and I used, that hundreds, if not thousands of reefers have reported their tanks do better. Sure there are other factors, mostly the use of ICP tests and hobbyists ability and knowledge to dose specific elements because of that testing; but the tanks still do great without the water changes.

I don't expect we are going to get much farther in this conversation so I will respectfully bow out, but I do want to thank you for having it with me; and sharing the articles you have written. I have learned a lot; and I do and have always appreciated your time.

it would be interesting to see how my tank differed (if at all) without water changes, but it’s too late to test that now. :)
 

Dav2996

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Please help me to understand. (I did read the article you posted, I love reading your stuff. I did have to google things to understand what they were.)

If the organisms we keep are intentionally secreting organics, and they will continue to do so, then how is the math on that organic removal not similar to using water changes to remove nitrate.

If anything wouldn't the organisms secrete greater amounts of organics as they grew larger?

When we do a water change of say 20% we would only remove 20 % of the secreted organics. The organisms would continue to produce more. The next water change would only remove 20% of the now higher number. So on and so forth. Eventually the secreted organics would rise to a level of toxicity. It might take longer then it would with the more commonly understood elements but wouldn't they eventually arrive at the same conclusion?

Also to clarify my stance on water changes as it seems to be misunderstood. I am not against them, but would not label a filter which needs several other filters, as effective. To many hobbyists read that all they have to do is change 10% of the water every week and their tank will be successful. I haven't found this to be the case. There is simply more to it.


Also, in personal experience I have kept systems for as long as 4 years in between water changes, only adding new water when water was removed fragging corals. My tank was full of corals, Monti's bigger then a basket ball, pagoda cup I could use as a lid to a bucket, all grown from the size of a quarter. IME I never ran in to a toxicity issue with DOMs (or POMs). Do you have any hypothesis on why certain systems can thrive without water changes for so long?

Thanks for taking the time to explain this to us.
My corals absorb those organics. I got GSP growing all over the back wall, they are my filter.
 

Dav2996

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it would be interesting to see how my tank differed (if at all) without water changes, but it’s too late to test that now. :)
I have made it 6 months without water changes I love it and everything is thriving. I do dose a ton of stuff follow the salifert trace bottles recommendations. Everything super happy, I keep only lps, and softies. Soft coral love a dirty tank.
 

Dav2996

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it would be interesting to see how my tank differed (if at all) without water changes, but it’s too late to test that now. :)
I honestly think it comes down to what you want to keep at the end of the day. :) Don't acropora hate a dirty tank?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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My corals absorb those organics. I got GSP growing all over the back wall, they are my filter.

Is that sarcasm? If not, why do you believe gsp take up dissolved organics?
 

pledosophy

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it would be interesting to see how my tank differed (if at all) without water changes, but it’s too late to test that now. :)

It's never to late Randy.

With how far you brought us all forward the last 20 something years since I read your first article; I think that your mind and understanding would be so much benefit to the Triton/Moonshiners community. You could probably advance us 5 years in 1.

Let's get you a tank.
 

A Young Reefer

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It's never to late Randy.

With how far you brought us all forward the last 20 something years since I read your first article; I think that your mind and understanding would be so much benefit to the Triton/Moonshiners community. You could probably advance us 5 years in 1.

Let's get you a tank.
+1
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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My nitrates drop as they grow :). I also do not do water changes.

There’s no doubt at all they they take up N and P, such as nitrate and phosphate (which are inorganic), but you said they take up organics. That’s the confusing part of your claim as there’s no evidence that I have seen that they do take up most organics.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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It's never to late Randy.

With how far you brought us all forward the last 20 something years since I read your first article; I think that your mind and understanding would be so much benefit to the Triton/Moonshiners community. You could probably advance us 5 years in 1.

Let's get you a tank.

Lol, maybe. :)

thanks!
 
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