Do you consider growing out coral, fragging and trading as a way to participate in reef conservation?

[o2manyfish]

I hate to burst all your good feeling bubbles. But if 50% of the hobbyists stopped buying wild colonies then 50% less corals will be taken from the wild is absurd. It's supply and demand. Coral Collectors are never in a situation where they are looking for someone to buy their inventory. There is always a heavy and constant demand.

I have been involved in every aspect of this industry for almost 40 years. Collectors/Exporters of coral and fish have never closed shop because their sales dropped. Regulations, Cities, Permits, Quotas - That's what puts collectors out of business and slows the rate at which the ocean is harvested. And Cities, Permits and Quotas don't have a single iota of influence by what hobbyists around the world are doing in their aquariums.

Now I am 100% in favor of growing and trading corals. I personally do it, and on scale, to donate corals to noobs, schools, students, first responders, vets etc. I don't think I'm saving the world, I think I am making it easier for some people to start or enjoy a hobby which I love so much. I'm fortunate that I don't need my tank(s) to generate any income. For me it's a joy to share corals with others.

But if I give away 1000 corals to people all in a single month, don't think 1 less coral is shipped into the United States for the hobby. And even if I was producing 10 million pieces a month, there would still be the same demand for wild corals for diversity of the inventory in the hobby.

Dave B

 

[Ef4life]

Conservation literally means ‘the prevention of a wasteful use of a resource’ by not buying wild caught corals, you are conserving wild corals. I agree that most hobbyist level aquaculture is not going end up repopulating wild corals, but if it means even 20% less wild corals are collected, that is less of a strain on an already declining population, it is by definition conservation.

im going to disagree- conservation isn’t just leaving something to be on its own, if the reefs are dying, doing nothing isn’t conservation it’s outright resource mismanagement. Conservation requires effort and money to manage the resources. That requires humans going out to reefs and maintain them either clean up, fragging, re planting native coral etc. that can also mean taking things away that could over populate the reefs. It could mean changing shipping lanes, denying access to areas for periods of time for recovery.

peta freaks hate it when we go out to the woods and hunt, but I’m directly putting my time and money into conservation of our natural resources. Every hunting license, firearm, and box of bullets sold and many other things have taxes that directly go to funding conservation efforts for wildlife and nature preserves, pay for game wardens to manage etc. and managed hunting is good for animal populations, because if left unchecked they can over populate, then they starve to death because not enough food, diesease sets in, etc, no one likes hitting deer in their car, or seeing diseases animals walking around waiting to die.

African big game hunting is the best thing for African big game conservation because it puts a value on the animals to keep the population in check and the herds healthy and not go extinct via over hunting or poaching. 100,000$ elephant hunts literally feed entire villages, fund elephant rehabilitation programs and pay for armed guards to literally guard endangered animals from poachers.

so banning collection from and doing nothing to maintain our natural reefs is the absolute worst way to manage a once in a lifetime resource that would not be able to be replaced.

 

[MaxTremors]

I bet it's not even a fraction of a percent, though, honestly. In fact, 5 years ago, I would bet a paycheck that fewer corals were being ocean-harvested than today, despite fragging and trading.

You think that corals aquacultured by other hobbyists only make up a fraction of a single percent of the corals in the average hobbyists tank(s)? That out of 400 hundred corals in average hobbyists’ tanks, only 1 is aquacultured by other hobbyists? The percentage is far, far higher than that, I’m probably above the average, but my tank is probably 50%. More corals overall might be being collected compared to five years ago, but that’s because the hobby is growing, regardless of how many wild corals are being collected, it’s still substantially less than if hobbyists didn’t aquaculture. It’s impossible to know what the actual percentage is, but it’s certainly more than 10% (which would translate to tens if not hundreds of thousands of wild corals not being collected).

 

[MaxTremors]

im going to disagree- conservation isn’t just leaving something to be on its own, if the reefs are dying, doing nothing isn’t conservation it’s outright resource mismanagement. Conservation requires effort and money to manage the resources. That requires humans going out to reefs and maintain them either clean up, fragging, re planting native coral etc. that can also mean taking things away that could over populate the reefs. It could mean changing shipping lanes, denying access to areas for periods of time for recovery.

peta freaks hate it when we go out to the woods and hunt, but I’m directly putting my time and money into conservation of our natural resources. Every hunting license, firearm, and box of bullets sold and many other things have taxes that directly go to funding conservation efforts for wildlife and nature preserves, pay for game wardens to manage etc. and managed hunting is good for animal populations, because if left unchecked they can over populate, then they starve to death because not enough food, diesease sets in, etc, no one likes hitting deer in their car, or seeing diseases animals walking around waiting to die.

African big game hunting is the best thing for African big game conservation because it puts a value on the animals to keep the population in check and the herds healthy and not go extinct via over hunting or poaching. 100,000$ elephant hunts literally feed entire villages, fund elephant rehabilitation programs and pay for armed guards to literally guard endangered animals from poachers.

so banning collection from and doing nothing to maintain our natural reefs is the absolute worst way to manage a once in a lifetime resource that would not be able to be replaced.

I fundamentally disagree that conservation has to involve intervention and management. I also completely disagree that hunting, especially African big game hunting, is conservation or tantamount to conservation, and this is shown in the data (if you look outside of that presented and funded by pro hunting groups - see below). National parks, photo safaris, and ecotourism provide more money per acre to conservation, provide more jobs (that aren’t seasonal), and the land itself is maintained and left in better condition. And as far as hunting in North America, the only reason management of populations is necessary is because hunters killed all of the predators, but again, I don’t know that I would call that conservation.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280007618_BIG_GAME_HUNTING_IN_WEST_AFRICA_WHAT_IS_ITS_CONTRIBUTION_TO_CONSERVATION

 

[MasterOogway]

The answer is generally no. Sorry.
There are exceptions, like very threatened species which are almost functionally extinct in the wild, which can be preserved in captivity.
But in general the genetic diversity represented by the frags in the hobby is negligible if compared to what is necessary for proper conservation measure. Also the corals in our tanks are adapting to captivity conditions and therefore less suitable for repopulation than coral fragments grown in situ.
Conservation is something that must be organized, studied and planned in years, not by randomly buying corals at shops.
The positive aspect is that by growing corals and sharing this passion to other people we are more aware, and making other people more aware, about the value of marine life.

edit. Also I would say that the portion of corals that are wild caught is negligible compared to what is lost due to climate change. Still better frags than WC corals, that's for sure.

As someone who is actively involved in repopulating wild species, this. This exactly. You're spot on, and more people need to acknowledge this.

 

[JNalley]

You think that corals aquacultured by other hobbyists only make up a fraction of a single percent of the corals in the average hobbyists tank(s)? That out of 400 hundred corals in average hobbyists’ tanks, only 1 is aquacultured by other hobbyists? The percentage is far, far higher than that, I’m probably above the average, but my tank is probably 50%. More corals overall might be being collected compared to five years ago, but that’s because the hobby is growing, regardless of how many wild corals are being collected, it’s still substantially less than if hobbyists didn’t aquaculture. It’s impossible to know what the actual percentage is, but it’s certainly more than 10% (which would translate to tens if not hundreds of thousands of wild corals not being collected).

And 0% of the corals in my tank are aquaculture from other hobbyists, and I'd venture to say, considering that Ocean-Harvested corals seem to be cheaper, I am not alone in this by any stretch of the imagination ;-)

Edit: And I only represent an average American hobbyist.... Think of all of the other places (Indonesia, Thailand, Vietnam, China, The middle east, South Africa, etc) that have a large stake in this hobby and ocean harvested specimens are even more prevalent there...

 

[HankstankXXL750]

I believe that aquacultured corals help
To lessen the impact upon the wild reefs. But even more I have read articles where aquacultured corals are being used to reseed wild reefs.
I have to believe that the hobby has helped this become a reality. I’m sure scientists would have and could have done this without the hobby, but can help but think that the industry had to have helped as companies developed this to replace products that were becoming harder to acquire so they could continue to stay in business.

 

[KrisReef]

I guess I have to answer this as someone who's job this was for a number of years (with endangered terrestrial animals not corals):

This issue is overall minute. What will save or destroy corals is interest in corals and in extension money.

If we start collecting corals at such a high rate that we reduce population to a critical level too fast then we've massively messed up.
But if the interest and in extension the money is there then both conservationists and business people will find a way of saving corals if given the time. It's what's saving the pandas. It's what's probably going to save the polar bears. It's what is saving by beloved cheetahs. But also why so many more ecologically important but less remarkable creatures have died out.

In my view its getting people excited about corals and investing in sustainable aquaculture and mariculture that will do the most for conservation. Fragging certainly isn't a bad thing as it may reduce destruction of wild reefs but in the end but its a drop in the ocean.

Tourism around coral reefs is also very important also because of money.

I like what argument @Slocke has put together.

My pole answer was OTHER.

In no way is my use of grid electricity to heat, cool, and pump water around in circles in my tank conserving anything on the planet except perhaps those investors who enjoy the profits from my careless consumption. This reefing passion is a hobby, not a carefully contrived plan to save the environment or any segment of the planet. I'm just passing my time here enjoying the corals and fish before I depart the accidental planet and get recycled in the random universe created by a cosmic accident.
What do you think? According to the GIF we are running out of space here.

It must be from all the LFS and reef stores opening to sell us corals, right?

 

[KonradTO]

As someone who is actively involved in repopulating wild species, this. This exactly. You're spot on, and more people need to acknowledge this.

I mean, as long as hobbists don't start going out there in mass collecting corals in the wild because "it helps", it is an harmless ingenuity. I think people want to give the hobby a noble cause, because it's nice when you contribute to save what you love.
But I think there are other ways we can actually help corals better:
- Some hobbists here have incredibile knowledge of coral husbandry. This is precious information that the scientific community can use, so we could organize, with the help of the forum moderators & marine biologists users, some little experiments for veryfing some theories about coral maintanance in captivity. Things have to be reproducible but imagine the sample size! I am excited only talking about this!
- we can do scientific divulgation (is it the right EN term?). Hobbists are between the most passionate people about corals and marine life, I am sure we can share this with "outsiders" much better than some scientists. Unfortunately being a scientist does not mean to be able to share your research in understandable way with the wider public. Actually usually scientists struggle with this.
We can make the difference if more and more people are passionate about marine life and willing to stand for it when their governments take unresponsible decisions or refuse to invest adequate fundings for research.
Let's do something real together instead of dreaming that we can help nature by fragging sticks

 

[MnFish1]

There are 2 different questions IMHO:
1. DO you think your INDIVIDUAL tank is helping perserve natural corals because you frag and give to other people
2. Do you think your INDIVIDUAL corals are likely to be used to repopulated the reefs.

IMHO - 1. Yes. 2. No way

 

[firechild]

It's funny, only 13% of the votes are currently No, yet they represent the majority of responses, for good reason IMO. I think the majority of Yes respondents have a romanticised view that isn't really consistent with reality. Take the Australian coral fisheries as an example. Quotas haven't been changed in over 20 years, new licenses haven't been offered in just as long. Every year the entirety of the quotas are filled. This means there has been no increase or decrease in the amount of coral collected from places like the GBR in that time. Australia isn't alone in this stance, other countries have quotas that are not being changed as demand in the industry increases, the only thing that is changing is collectors are being more selective so that they can get the maximum $ from what they collect. So we can debunk the notion that less coral is being taken due to fragging. Others have mentioned the fact that no coral is going back onto the reefs from the average reefers aquarium, so we're not offsetting what we take. For most, the logistics of getting your frags back to somewhere that they could be used to rehabilitate reefs would be prohibitive. Even if you could get them there, there are all sorts of biosecurity risks. The average reefer in the US would probably have organisms from the Carribean, South Pacific and potentially Indian ocean. Risk of transferring pathogens and parasites into new locations would mean that any attempts to use aquarium grown corals to reseed wild reef is fanciful at best.

It's nice to think we're doing something that could be beneficial to the reefs but that's absolutely not the case.

 

[MasterOogway]

I mean, just look at the efforts going to try to repopulate Florida corals that's currently being undertaken by a bunch of zoos on the east coast, that's a huge project. Over 20 zoos across 14 states, lots of money and infrastructure resources getting tossed at it, good solid science, but tons of financial costs associated with it. And that's just for corals off the coast of one state in one country in the world. It's great to think that by fragging or w/e you're being responsible, and sure, you may reduce some demand on wild specimens (likely) but that's also not likely the majority of folks, and you're certainly not saving species in the wild. If you want to do that, you need to actually be a 'boots on the ground' type person, doing field work or working in institutions who have the resources to do that work. Your hobby tank is just not doing that. It's a similar question we wrestle with over in my main hobby, dart frogs, and the answer in the end is basically the same. It's nice to be responsible and get captive specimens (which, to be clear, you should always strive to do) but you are categorically not saving species. Nothing in your tanks will ever see the wild.

 

[MnFish1]

I mean, just look at the efforts going to try to repopulate Florida corals that's currently being undertaken by a bunch of zoos on the east coast, that's a huge project. Over 20 zoos across 14 states, lots of money and infrastructure resources getting tossed at it, good solid science, but tons of financial costs associated with it. And that's just for corals off the coast of one state in one country in the world. It's great to think that by fragging or w/e you're being responsible, and sure, you may reduce some demand on wild specimens (likely) but that's also not likely the majority of folks, and you're certainly not saving species in the wild. If you want to do that, you need to actually be a 'boots on the ground' type person, doing field work or working in institutions who have the resources to do that work. Your hobby tank is just not doing that. It's a similar question we wrestle with over in my main hobby, dart frogs, and the answer in the end is basically the same. It's nice to be responsible and get captive specimens (which, to be clear, you should always strive to do) but you are categorically not saving species. Nothing in your tanks will ever see the wild.

Yes - a bunch of zoos with the expertise to do so. I do not think the oceans will be repopulated with 'Walt Disney' SPS? The hobbyist will likely have little role - EXCEPT - for not buying wild corals - and if anyone can tell me how to make sure I'm not buying a wild coral - as compared to an aquaculture coral - all good. Because - I've bought 'aquaculture coral' that in the end was not the case

 

[Reefkeeper28]

Happy Monday!

What are some way in which regular reef aquarium hobbyists can participate in reef conservation right from their home?

Do you consider growing out coral, fragging and trading as a way to participate in reef conservation?

image via @therman

Of course I don't even see a reason to pull corals out of the ocean's anymore like it was decade's ago. Every time I go to my favorite local snorkeling spots I take a few frags with me and now there are some corals where there were none. I always check on them and I think I lost 3 or 4 in the past 4 years until a @hole decides to grab one. We should all give back besides it's a good way to also trade and make $

 

[MasterOogway]

We should all give back

As a general rule, please don't take corals from your own personal systems and place them back in the ocean, that can be a terrible thing to do. There are large risks associated with doing things like that for the native eco systems in place. You risk bringing all kinds of novel pathogens into that environment.

 

[mightynova63]

So my LFS has this frag for sale, and my question is what's it worth

 

[MnFish1]

Of course I don't even see a reason to pull corals out of the ocean's anymore like it was decade's ago. Every time I go to my favorite local snorkeling spots I take a few frags with me and now there are some corals where there were none. I always check on them and I think I lost 3 or 4 in the past 4 years until a @hole decides to grab one. We should all give back besides it's a good way to also trade and make $

IMHO, this is an extremely BAD idea - and likely illegal in many locations.

 

[CrunchyBananas]

Of course I don't even see a reason to pull corals out of the ocean's anymore like it was decade's ago. Every time I go to my favorite local snorkeling spots I take a few frags with me and now there are some corals where there were none. I always check on them and I think I lost 3 or 4 in the past 4 years until a @hole decides to grab one. We should all give back besides it's a good way to also trade and make $

I understand you’re trying to help, but this could have horrible consequences for an entire ecosystem. Unless you’re keeping only locally grown and collected corals isolated in a system for the purpose of repopulating, one wrong move could be detrimental. For all I know, you have a great system, process, the proper licensing and approval of authorities of the ecosystem, and that’d be great. Anything short of that needs to be heavily, heavily discouraged, and left to experts who know what they’re doing.

just look at caulerpa, zebra mussels, lion fish, etc. one accidental or wrong addition can collapse the ecosystem you’re trying to help.