Do you think we have gone too far with clownfish breeding?

[flsalty]

I'm pretty sure it has been disclosed or else this post wouldn't exist.

It is not disclosed on the ORA product page. I'm going to assume you didn't disclose it on your FB page. It is being discussed here because it was mentioned as an aside in the reef2rainforest article.

It's so much easier to refer to people who disagree with you as "haters", isn't it? I also saw on your FB someone referring to us as "uninformed". Look, I get how it is tempting to come up with weird fish. There is certainly money in it. There is also some personal satisfaction for some in controlling nature. I've bred many different cichlids in my day. Yes, I "mercilessly culled" inferior fish. Personally, I feel that is better than mercilessly corrupting the gene pool. Obviously not all my fellow breeders felt that way and the monstrosity known as the blood parrot cichlid was created.

 

[flsalty]

MY opinion is this. In the reptile community, Many people are angry about spider ball pythons neurological defects, what is different from this fish to a spider ball python. you are still deliberately breeding an animal that has a disability of some sort.

Exactly, and that is not the only problem in the reptile world. I guess it was naive of me to hope that saltwater breeders would have learned from the mistakes made in the pet industry in the past.

 

[DSC reef]

MY opinion is this. In the reptile community, Many people are angry about spider ball pythons neurological defects, what is different from this fish to a spider ball python. you are still deliberately breeding an animal that has a disability of some sort.

Great point and the main reason I avoid any ball python with a spider gene.

 

[Malifry97]

Great point and the main reason I avoid any ball python with a spider gene.

Yep Thanks!

 

[Malifry97]

Exactly, and that is not the only problem in the reptile world. I guess it was naive of me to hope that saltwater breeders would have learned from the mistakes made in the pet industry in the past.

Yeah man, Its all about the money for most of them.

 

[Twìsted~Coral]

they are out of ideas

 

[Robert King]

No one is hating, just difference of opinion and sorry you can't handle that. Your attitude against others who disagree is sad to be honest. Your turning reefers and hobbyists that disagree with your one type of clownfish into "hate" and as a buisness owner I would think you had higher regard for others opinions. The more you post just makes want to avoid anything you produce. I wish you the best in your endeavors but I'm done with our conversation.

I'm truly sorry but the people saying I should apologize for letting disabled fish, (which they are definitely not) out into the mainstream, tends to rub me the wrong way. I do take offense to that as would anyone. I don't mind constructive criticism in the least. When I feel as though I'm being portrayed as the bad guy or being attacked, I will stick up for myself as I would hope you would also do. I've had people tell me they don't like these fish and I never once had a problem with that. They are not for everyone and I get that. The posts I've read and am reading, definitely exhibit some hate as opposed to difference of opinion. Thank you for your criticism. I will try to be more mindful of the non aggressive posts.

 

[Robert King]

It is not disclosed on the ORA product page. I'm going to assume you didn't disclose it on your FB page. It is being discussed here because it was mentioned as an aside in the reef2rainforest article.

It's so much easier to refer to people who disagree with you as "haters", isn't it? I also saw on your FB someone referring to us as "uninformed". Look, I get how it is tempting to come up with weird fish. There is certainly money in it. There is also some personal satisfaction for some in controlling nature. I've bred many different cichlids in my day. Yes, I "mercilessly culled" inferior fish. Personally, I feel that is better than mercilessly corrupting the gene pool. Obviously not all my fellow breeders felt that way and the monstrosity known as the blood parrot cichlid was created.

Yes it has been disclosed many times in my videos but at the end of the day, my fish are healthy and happy. I appreciate your views on the matter.

 

[Malifry97]

Yes it has been disclosed many times in my videos but at the end of the day, my fish are healthy and happy. I appreciate your views on the matter.

Well, if they have loss of vision, they can’t be 100% happy or healthy, this is what we are arguing.

 

[Robert King]

Well, if they have loss of vision, they can’t be 100% happy or healthy, this is what we are arguing.

They show 0 signs of loss of vision and If you ever observe them, I'm sure you would agree. That's what I'm arguing. No one will know until they actually observe them. If you'd like, I would be more than happy to do a facetime or the android equivalent, to show you how voraciously they eat. They keep up with all the other tank mates when it comes to eating.

 

[Silver14SS]

They show 0 signs of loss of vision and If you ever observe them, I'm sure you would agree. That's what I'm arguing. No one will know until they actually observe them. If you'd like, I would be more than happy to do a facetime or the android equivalent, to show you how voraciously they eat. They keep up with all the other tank mates when it comes to eating.

you may want to contact the author of the reef2rainforest article for spreading the misleading info.

“Some initial Internet chatter has suggested that the Zombie clownfish are blind, but that is not the case. ORA notes that their visual acuity is reduced, however.”

 

[flsalty]

you may want to contact the author of the reef2rainforest article for spreading the misleading info.

“Some initial Internet chatter has suggested that the Zombie clownfish are blind, but that is not the case. ORA notes that their visual acuity is reduced, however.”

Or maybe contact ORA. Perhaps successive generations lose some vision. Why would ORA note that if it wasn't true?

 

[Silver14SS]

Or maybe contact ORA. Perhaps successive generations lose some vision. Why would ORA note that if it wasn't true?

I thought it wasn’t on ORA’s site? I take hearsay with a very large grain of salt. If it is true and ORA doesn’t mention it, shame on them. Maybe all this is a mistake from reef2rainforest?

Zombie Clownfish | Amphiprion ocellaris | ORA | Oceans, Reefs & Aquariums

They're baaaaaaack....from the dead! ORA Zombie Clownfish are an exceptionally strange albino strain of a Black Ocellaris.

www.orafarm.com

 

[Malifry97]

They show 0 signs of loss of vision and If you ever observe them, I'm sure you would agree. That's what I'm arguing. No one will know until they actually observe them. If you'd like, I would be more than happy to do a facetime or the android equivalent, to show you how voraciously they eat. They keep up with all the other tank mates when it comes to eating.

I apologize for my ignorance...after further review of the ORA site it seems I am wrong...my argument does go for not just that specific fish but any animal that is intentionally bred when it knowingly has a defect.

 

[flsalty]

I thought it wasn’t on ORA’s site? I take hearsay with a very large grain of salt. If it is true and ORA doesn’t mention it, shame on them. Maybe all this is a mistake from reef2rainforest?

Zombie Clownfish | Amphiprion ocellaris | ORA | Oceans, Reefs & Aquariums

They're baaaaaaack....from the dead! ORA Zombie Clownfish are an exceptionally strange albino strain of a Black Ocellaris.

www.orafarm.com

It isn't on the ORA site, but that doesn't mean it isn't so. I suppose it is possible reef2rainforest got it wrong, but I'd like to see proof of that. I appreciate what Robert King is saying here, but he has no control over what ORA does with his fish.

 

[CollectOyster04]

I can't help but to correlate clown fish to ball pythons these days. With the exception clowns have alot more eggs over a year. I get it, one pair could produce hundreds, if not thousands of babies which technically could not be inbred. I think the biggest problem many of us have, is to continually breed mutation after mutation to create new "morphs". Breeding of brother to sister, or father to daughter, etc, like has been done with ball pythons. Sure, an albino animal could be natural, but the chances of TWO finding each other and having offspring ? Doesn't seem too plausible. If you want your head to spin, research the genetics involved with all of the ball python morphs. It has gotten just silly. But, as long as there are people to buy them, they will continue to be produced. All of the clownfish I have owned have been some of the meanest things I have dealt with, so count me out ! Rather take my chances with a retic (python), lol !

 

[Malifry97]

I can't help but to correlate clown fish to ball pythons these days. With the exception clowns have alot more eggs over a year. I get it, one pair could produce hundreds, if not thousands of babies which technically could not be inbred. I think the biggest problem many of us have, is to continually breed mutation after mutation to create new "morphs". Breeding of brother to sister, or father to daughter, etc, like has been done with ball pythons. Sure, an albino animal could be natural, but the chances of TWO finding each other and having offspring ? Doesn't seem too plausible. If you want your head to spin, research the genetics involved with all of the ball python morphs. It has gotten just silly. But, as long as there are people to buy them, they will continue to be produced. All of the clownfish I have owned have been some of the meanest things I have dealt with, so count me out ! Rather take my chances with a retic (python), lol !

YES!!! You put it the perfect way!

 

[AC1211]

Mr. King, this is funny. SO, Do you believe there are people out there that think Veil tail is a natural thing? That there are people that have no idea what a wild Discus looks like? That Snowstorm Clowns are a naturally occurring species?That people purposely inbreed fish to take monetary gain from a deformity? This is what we are telling you and you continuously feel it is OK what you are doing. Purposely breeding fish with a deformity and calling it rare but natural.. and feeling that it is acceptable.. You already said you pulled your pair from an unnaturally occurring Man Made Morph, did you not? So all you are doing is perpetuating deformity.. I would liken it to something from the past but don't feel talking about forced human breeding is a thing that should be discussed here. Maybe you can be more precise in what you feel is acceptable deformity.. To further push this, what do you think the natural survivability is of this.. rare but naturally occurring deformity?

My feeling is that if you are breeding a morph to educate on what is possible but not selling unless someone absolutely promises not to breed it. I say create varieties sure but they should not be as widely sold as they are.

 

[Robert King]

My feeling is that if you are breeding a morph to educate on what is possible but not selling unless someone absolutely promises not to breed it. I say create varieties sure but they should not be as widely sold as they are.

I never said I pulled my pair from an unnaturally occuring man made morph. My pair came from the wild and albinos they produced are also a natural occurrence. A lack of melanin is not a deformity or a disability. Tangerine clowns are also albino and have been here long before my Zombies. What's morally right lies in the heart of each person. Imposing your morals on anyone else, well that very act is immoral. 9,999 out of 10,000 clownfish are culled mercilessly by nature. If we go by what "nature" intended, we are already so far off the mark. Thank you for your concern and for sharing your beliefs on this topic.

 

[Robert Vacchiano]

Most people do not have knowledge of the true facts about this fish and they want to bash it’s crazy