Does bacteria in a bottle work to speed up cycling a new tank?

[LeftyReefer]

Adobo, your API test kits are fine for testing during cycling. It's more important to be able to see/detect changes in tank parameters rather than determining the exact numbers at any time. The API kits are perfectly fine for detecting changes, just don't put all your faith in any one exact reading beng perfectly spot on all the time.

When the ammonia test shows dark green one day and then light green and then yellow the next, you know ammonia went down... That's good enough for cycling. Monitor changes in ammonia and nitrite.

Your tank will be cycled when the bacterial filter can process 2ppm ammonia down to 0ppm in 24 hours. Telling that is easier if you can dose your tank quickly and easily with ammonia chloride.

 

[salty150]

I've seen a lot of complaints about tanks not cycling with Dr Tim's - which makes me wonder if they've got some sort of supply chain issue somewhere.

Never heard anything of the sort... have links?

 

[92Miata]

Never heard anything of the sort... have links?

Literally the first post of this thread is one.

here's another:

Not cycling after a fortnight with Dr Tim's

Hi there reefers. This is my first post! I set up my first reef aquarium and quarantine tanks 2 weeks ago with 2ppm ammonia (Dr Tim's Ammonium Chloride) and bacteria (Dr Tim's One & Only). The main tank is a 80g/300L second hand tank that I cleaned out with vinegar, rinsed with lots of water...

www.reef2reef.com

there are more

 

[salty150]

Literally the first post of this thread is one.

here's another:

Not cycling after a fortnight with Dr Tim's

Hi there reefers. This is my first post! I set up my first reef aquarium and quarantine tanks 2 weeks ago with 2ppm ammonia (Dr Tim's Ammonium Chloride) and bacteria (Dr Tim's One & Only). The main tank is a 80g/300L second hand tank that I cleaned out with vinegar, rinsed with lots of water...

www.reef2reef.com

there are more

Your post said you've "seen a lot of complaints..."

The guy in the above rinsed his sand and bleached his rock.... prior to using Dr. Tim's...

The second cycling agent he used also did not work in his tank...

The OP in this thread used live sand - which Dr. Tim tells you specifically not to do (or the cycle may take much longer) in his very thorough videos - as the heterotrophic bacteria and denitrifiers during cycling inhibit the pure source of nitrifiers in Dr. Tim's One and Only.

According to Ryan at BRS they have used Dr. Tim's on literally over 100 of their office tanks and it has worked every single time.

Dr. Tim's is used at national aquariums, university research labs, etc.

 

[92Miata]

Your post said you've "seen a lot of complaints..."

And I have.

I have no interest trawling this forum looking to prove a personal observation to you. If you're curious, the search function will work just fine when you use it.


it is both possible that *it works for BRS and research institutions* and that it ends up in a lot of people's hands in a condition where it no longer works.

 

[Evanbardiel]

I used turbo start to get my cycle started and used a shrimp to kick off the amonia, then dosed with fritzyme 9. Long story short it took 15 days to get a fish into my tank

 

[salty150]

it is both possible that *it works for BRS and research institutions* and that it ends up in a lot of people's hands in a condition where it no longer works.

Or it's easier to blame the product than the user...

 

[92Miata]

Or it's easier to blame the product than the user...

Clearly you're not reading the posts you're responding to. I have not once said there's anything wrong with Dr. Tims. What I have said is that I believe that they have a handling issue.

People get bottles in the mail that aren't kept cold. Like a lot of people here have complained about. Dr Tims is one of the only ones that seems to require being kept cold.

Why do you seem so aghast at the idea that LFS and UPS might not be storing this stuff properly?

 

[salty150]

Why do you seem so aghast at the idea that LFS and UPS might not be storing this stuff properly?

Oh, I'm not - and I am sure that happens...

Thanks for the clarification - I agree.

It just seems that a lot of people think that is all you have to do is pour it in and then add the Ammonium Chloride - and boom, in 10 days your tank cycles.

There is more to it than that.

According to the website instructions - you are supposed to be measuring pH, NO2, and NH3 during the entire process.

And if your NO2 or NH3 values are over 5 ppm - you then skip the next addition of the ammonia drops.

You also can't use any heterotrophic bacteria or denitrifiers during cycling with Dr. Tim's One and Only - as they inhibit the pure source of nitrifiers in it.

Etc., etc., etc.

 

[Jonify]

I'm not going to get into the arguments above, they raise some fine points. In my experience, Dr. Tim's is good at one thing: helping you psuedo-cycle a tank immediately so you can add a few fish right now and do the rest of the cycling over several weeks, where you're continuing to add Dr. Tim's regularly, and where ammonia/nitrite will go up and fall nearly undetectably over a few more weeks until the tank completes the cycle and finds its balance. That is what Dr. Tim's is good for. However, if you're using Dr. Tim's to cycle a fishless tank, it's probably not gonna work. You need a continuous, slow, ammonia source to sustain the cycling that Dr. Tim's bacteria starts, and you need to continue to dose Dr. Tim's for a few times until the bacteria in the tank takes hold to the substrate/rock/surfaces and can keep pace with the ammonia released to convert to nitrite and nitrate like a more mature reef does. I did Dr. Tim's for the first few tanks, with a few fish, which worked, but I dealt with a lot more nasties in the first few months. Doing a fishless cycle with something like Red Sea Reef Mature yielded more stabled results with less nasties in the first 3 months. Neither approach yields a worse result ultimately, you just have to know what you're getting into, and what to expect as a result.

 

[HighChiefKC]

I started a new tank with new dry sand and new dry rock.
I dosed my tank up to 2ppm ammonia, dumped in a 4 oz bottle of Turbo Start 900 and 4 oz of Bio-Spira. My tank cycled in a week. Dosed it up to 2ppm three times just to be sure and everytime ammonia dropped to 0ppm by 24 hours. My tank was started last monday. Ive dosed it three times since. It now sits with 0 ppm ammonia, 0 ppm nitrites, and 40 ppm nitrates. It's ready for a water change and live stock.

Now saying that. My bottle of Turbo Start 900 was very fresh and was shipped to me with ice packs to keep it cold during delivery. I think that makes a difference.

I think Turbo Start 900 and Bio-Spira work. The others.... Not so sure.

I had great luck with it too!

 

[LeftyReefer]

Dr Tim's One and Only does not need refrigeration.
It's recommended for longest shelf life, but not needed.
6 months shelf life at room temp.
1 year shelf life if stored at 50F.
It says to keep it refrigerated for the longest shelf life.
Do not freeze.

Fritz Turbo Start 900 on the other hand requires it, and only has a 6 month shelf life even with refrigeration. It says it has 15 times the concentration as their non refrigerated version. There is an expiration date on most bottles.

Dr Tim has said that freezing will kill the bottled bacteria before heat will. He said most bottles of bacteria will not see temperatures high enough to kill the bacteria under normal handling conditions.

 

[adobo]

The OP in this thread used live sand - which Dr. Tim tells you specifically not to do (or the cycle may take much longer) in his very thorough videos - as the heterotrophic bacteria and denitrifiers during cycling inhibit the pure source of nitrifiers in Dr. Tim's One and Only.

I never saw any such references in Dr. Tim's website or instructions. If live sand is such a huge issue, that information should be presented front and center in their instructions and their website. To expect someone to trip over that nugget on videos is asking a lot.

Having said that, I did watch a couple of the videos and still did not run across that nugget that live sand could interfere in the process. I did not pick up that tidbit until a second interaction with someone from Dr. Tim's when I asked, "what did I do wrong?" That's when I was told that live sand could interfere and perhaps lengthen the process.

 

[adobo]

And if your NO2 or NH3 values are over 5 ppm - you then skip the next addition of the ammonia drops.

I did all that.

You also can't use any heterotrophic bacteria or denitrifiers during cycling with Dr. Tim's One and Only - as they inhibit the pure source of nitrifiers in it.

If you see that in their website or their instructions, I'd appreciate a reference. My old eyes are not as good as they used to be and I occasionally miss things that are staring me right in the face.

 

[adobo]

Yes will suffice
1 ppm for api give max 48 hours I bet moves at least slightly down, I'd go all chips in then

I put in enough drops to drive ammonia back to about 1ppm. 24 hrs later, tank is reading zero ammonia.

Based on what I have to work with (API test kit), my observation is that it took about 17 days to build up enough bacteria to process 1ppm of ammonia to zero ppm. Conventional wisdom would say that I would have gotten similar results even without having used bacteria in a bottle.

I am told by the Dr Tim's people that having used live sand in a bag interfered with the process. I am neither equipped nor inclined to verify or disprove that claim so I suppose I just have to take their word for it.

 

[Picklepentagramsforjesus]

@brandon429 This is a gross oversimplification and I'm really confused why you keep pushing this incorrect and frankly dangerous information. I am more than happy if you have theories or pet projects on any number of topics including "rip cleaning" or bacterial additives, but you should not be telling people that "death" is the only barometer one can judge a cycle by, "ammonia can never raise for any reason in a tank" or that fish can not be harmed by ammonia in any way other than by dying. I really am at a loss for why you continue to say these things over and over again about ammonia in every thread? I'm not trying to insult your intellgence and I know it's important that you are somehow leading a new reefing revolution, but please, you've got to hold off on the hyperbole when it comes to ammonia. Of the many things you are trying to promote and do in this hobby, your statements about ammonia are frankly dangerous if taken at face value and it does a disservice to those observations and theories you've made in other areas that are grounded in fact and basic scientific concepts. As you have repeatedly turned down my invitations to talk about the topic, I would be more than happy to get you in touch with any number of marine biologists if you would like clarifiction about the effect of ammonia on fish and their gills, skin, and eyes.

Thank you for saying this new too the hobby and definitely don’t need misinformation Rn

 

[salty150]

 

[adobo]

This is like looking for a needle in the haystack - where in the video did he say not to use live sand? Alternatively, where in their website or in their instructions did they say not to use live sand? The closest I can find is this - he talks about this in detail at about 29:30 in the video:



Yet he is not saying "do not use live sand". Instead, he is saying to test if the live sand is generating ammonia already. If so, it might not be necessary to dose ammonium chloride.