Dosing Phosguard - alkalinity dropped and torches are angry

[JayFish4004]

Anybody have experience with this? Haven’t changed a thing outside of using Phosguard to drop my phosphates from 2.1 to 0.3.

I change 20-30% water and measure alk weekly - always stable around 8.5-8.9. Somehow this morning Im reading 7.9.

Over the last few weeks my torches and hammers have been unhappy as well. My big green torch which has never been unhappy in the year Ive had him now seems to be losing flesh and you can almost see the flesh flaking off. His tentacles are also curling inward which I haven’t seen before.

What the heck is happening here and how do I fix? Do I need to add some sodium bicarbonate to get my alk back up to 8.5? Also should I stop the phosguard?

rest of param’s:
Salinity: 1.025
Nitrates: 23ppm
Phosphates: 0.3ppm
Alkalinity: 7.9

 

[JayFish4004]

Here are a couple photos - you can see the pieces of tissue disintegrating between the heads there and the curled up tentacles.

 

[ukgeoff]

Maybe the big drop in phosphate is making your corals unhappy? I would presume dropping from 2.1 to 0.3 phosphate could possibly be a bigger shock to them than a 0.5 drop in dkh? I hope you manage to get things back on track.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe it is released aluminum.

 

[JayFish4004]

Maybe it is released aluminum.

That was my first hunch too - while the Phosguard did raise the aluminum levels (10 to 50 ug/l) I don’t think that’s high enough to be killing anything.

Aluminium	52.46 µg/l	0.10 µg/l	+52.36 µg/l		View
Antimony	u.	0.10 µg/l	-0.10 µg/l		View
Bismuth	u.	0.10 µg/l	-0.10 µg/l		View
Lead	u.	0.10 µg/l	-0.10 µg/l		View
Cadmium	u.	0.19 µg/l	-0.19 µg/l		View
Lanthanum	u.	0 µg/l	+0 µg/l		View
Thallium	u.	0.10 µg/l	-0.10 µg/l		View
Titanium	u.	0.10 µg/l	-0.10 µg/l		View
Tungsten	u.	0 µg/l	+0 µg/l		View
Mercury	u.	0 µg/l	+0 µg/l

 

[wculver]

Anybody have experience with this? Haven’t changed a thing outside of using Phosguard to drop my phosphates from 2.1 to 0.3.

I change 20-30% water and measure alk weekly - always stable around 8.5-8.9. Somehow this morning Im reading 7.9.

Over the last few weeks my torches and hammers have been unhappy as well. My big green torch which has never been unhappy in the year Ive had him now seems to be losing flesh and you can almost see the flesh flaking off. His tentacles are also curling inward which I haven’t seen before.

What the heck is happening here and how do I fix? Do I need to add some sodium bicarbonate to get my alk back up to 8.5? Also should I stop the phosguard?

rest of param’s:
Salinity: 1.025
Nitrates: 23ppm
Phosphates: 0.3ppm
Alkalinity: 7.9

There are a number of parameters that are missing from the typical report but given what you've provided and the pictures to me this looks like a challenge with ionic balance. The nitrates for example are relatively high compared to Phosphates which leads me to believe likely other things, even those you do not or cannot test for are out of balance also as a result.

The good news though based on the pictures looks like they're at the beginnig of being angry. I don't see the skin receeding to the head which would definitely be bad news.

So what I would do is SLOWLY work on the Nitrate levels along with the Phosphates with a relative target of 0.1 PPM Phosphate and 3 PPM Nitrate. Make sure that you also keep up with the water changes, that really helps to align the ionic balance outside of the nutrient transfer.

 

[JayFish4004]

There are a number of parameters that are missing from the typical report but given what you've provided and the pictures to me this looks like a challenge with ionic balance. The nitrates for example are relatively high compared to Phosphates which leads me to believe likely other things, even those you do not or cannot test for are out of balance also as a result.

The good news though based on the pictures looks like they're at the beginnig of being angry. I don't see the skin receeding to the head which would definitely be bad news.

So what I would do is SLOWLY work on the Nitrate levels along with the Phosphates with a relative target of 0.1 PPM Phosphate and 3 PPM Nitrate. Make sure that you also keep up with the water changes, that really helps to align the ionic balance outside of the nutrient transfer.

Unfortunately this has been a tough week - I lost 3 torches, 2 hammers and a frogspawn as a result of all of this. I have rowaphos getting numbers back down but the euphyllia couldnt handle the drop.

 

[Lavey29]

I've been using phosguard for a year and it never affects my alk.

 

[Bpp124987]

Wow. Sad. Any theories on what really happened ? That is a massive phosphate drop from a crazy high number
How big is the tank

 

[wculver]

Unfortunately this has been a tough week - I lost 3 torches, 2 hammers and a frogspawn as a result of all of this. I have rowaphos getting numbers back down but the euphyllia couldnt handle the drop.

Well that can definitely be an outcome unfortunately. Typically if you can move these numbers ever so slowly they'll do okay. I'm thinking in this case though they were already super stressed before you started working on lowering the numbers so it was more than they could endure.

Just an additional mention here, as you lower Nitrates or Phosphates, the Alkalinity will also jump up as you have seen. It'll actually go back down as the Nitrates and Phosphates go up. In short, the alk is working as an anode and balance out the chemistry in the micro-envionment the coral make for themselves. So as you lower these you need to test Alk frequently, my suggestion would be daily if you can pull it off. That way you can curb a significant increase in Alk and ward off more stress for the coral before it happens.

Unfortunately this has been a tough week - I lost 3 torches, 2 hammers and a frogspawn as a result of all of this. I have rowaphos getting numbers back down but the euphyllia couldnt handle the

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just an additional mention here, as you lower Nitrates or Phosphates, the Alkalinity will also jump up as you have seen. It'll actually go back down as the Nitrates and Phosphates go up. In short, the alk is working as an anode and balance out the chemistry in the micro-envionment the coral make for themselves. So as you lower these you need to test Alk frequently, my suggestion would be daily if you can pull it off. That way you can curb a significant increase in Alk and ward off more stress for the coral before it happens.

Can you clarify what you mean "as an anode"? I that a typo? I don't see how that term applies.

 

[JayFish4004]

I've been using phosguard for a year and it never affects my alk.

I’d personally move to rowaphos - Phosguard adds aluminum to the water for sure. I don’t think it was enough to cause an issue but over time it definitely would have been.

 

[JayFish4004]

Wow. Sad. Any theories on what really happened ? That is a massive phosphate drop from a crazy high number
How big is the tank

I can only point to the rapid drop in phos as the culprit - if it was alk I would’ve lost my birdnest, digitata and duncan Im sure. And when I say rapid - it was over the span of 60 days.

It’s a 20 gallon Red Sea Max Nano.

 

[JayFish4004]

Well that can definitely be an outcome unfortunately. Typically if you can move these numbers ever so slowly they'll do okay. I'm thinking in this case though they were already super stressed before you started working on lowering the numbers so it was more than they could endure.

Just an additional mention here, as you lower Nitrates or Phosphates, the Alkalinity will also jump up as you have seen. It'll actually go back down as the Nitrates and Phosphates go up. In short, the alk is working as an anode and balance out the chemistry in the micro-envionment the coral make for themselves. So as you lower these you need to test Alk frequently, my suggestion would be daily if you can pull it off. That way you can curb a significant increase in Alk and ward off more stress for the coral before it happens.

I actually saw the alkalinity drop from a consistent 8.7 dkh to 7.9 dkh - I dont think this was my killer though.

 

[SaJon]

I actually saw the alkalinity drop from a consistent 8.7 dkh to 7.9 dkh - I dont think this was my killer though.

Hey.. Have you tested the magnesium?

 

[JayFish4004]

Hey.. Have you tested the magnesium?

Here are ATI results - magnesium should be fine.

Symbol	Value	Calculated reference value	Difference	Result	Actions
Base elements
Salinity	33.91 PSU	35.00 PSU	-1.09 PSU		View
Carbonate hardness	7.13 °dKH	7.50 °dKH	-0.37 °dKH		View
Major elements
Chloride	18982 mg/l	18983 mg/l	-1.60 mg/l		View
Sodium	10547 mg/l	10546 mg/l	+0.90 mg/l		View
Magnesium	1302 mg/l	1261 mg/l	+40.92 mg/l		View
Sulfur	977.6 mg/l	882.1 mg/l	+95.54 mg/l		View
Calcium	420.1 mg/l	403.6 mg/l	+16.49 mg/l		View
Potassium	431.1 mg/l	391.2 mg/l	+39.95 mg/l		View
Bromine	51.40 mg/l	64.24 mg/l	-12.84 mg/l		View
Strontium	8.69 mg/l	7.67 mg/l	+1.02 mg/l		View
Boron	4.75 mg/l	4.22 mg/l	+0.54 mg/l		View
Fluorine	1.04 mg/l	1.25 mg/l	-0.21 mg/l		View
Minor elements
Lithium	81.07 µg/l	163.0 µg/l	-81.92 µg/l		View
Silicon	101.7 µg/l	95.88 µg/l	+5.82 µg/l		View
Iodine	37.67 µg/l	62.32 µg/l	-24.65 µg/l		View
Barium	64.45 µg/l	9.59 µg/l	+54.86 µg/l		View
Molybdenum	10.93 µg/l	11.51 µg/l	-0.57 µg/l		View
Nickel	u.	0.48 µg/l	-0.48 µg/l		View
Manganese	u.	0.96 µg/l	-0.96 µg/l		View
Arsenic	u.	1.44 µg/l	-1.44 µg/l		View
Beryllium	u.	0.10 µg/l	-0.10 µg/l		View
Chrome	u.	0.48 µg/l	-0.48 µg/l		View
Cobalt	u.	0.10 µg/l	-0.10 µg/l		View
Iron	u.	0.48 µg/l	-0.48 µg/l		View
Copper	u.	0.48 µg/l	-0.48 µg/l		View
Selenium	u.	0.48 µg/l	-0.48 µg/l		View
Silver	u.	0.10 µg/l	-0.10 µg/l		View
Vanadium	u.	1.44 µg/l	-1.44 µg/l		View
Zinc	u.	1.92 µg/l	-1.92 µg/l		View
Tin	u.	0.48 µg/l	-0.48 µg/l		View
Nutrients
Nitrate	24.21 mg/l	2.00 mg/l	+22.21 mg/l		View
Phosphorus	99.41 µg/l	14.38 µg/l	+85.03 µg/l		View
Phosphate	0.30 mg/l	0.04 mg/l	+0.26 mg/l		View
Pollutants
Aluminium	52.46 µg/l	0.10 µg/l	+52.36 µg/l		View
Antimony	u.	0.10 µg/l	-0.10 µg/l		View
Bismuth	u.	0.10 µg/l	-0.10 µg/l		View
Lead	u.	0.10 µg/l	-0.10 µg/l		View
Cadmium	u.	0.19 µg/l	-0.19 µg/l		View
Lanthanum	u.	0 µg/l	+0 µg/l		View
Thallium	u.	0.10 µg/l	-0.10 µg/l		View
Titanium	u.	0.10 µg/l	-0.10 µg/l		View
Tungsten	u.	0 µg/l	+0 µg/l		View
Mercury	u.	0 µg/l	+0 µg/l

 

[Saltyanimals]

Maybe it is released aluminum.

Hey @Randy Holmes-Farley I thought you wrote up something on your reefing page that debunked phosguard and leaking Al. I swore I read something like that or am I losing my mind.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hey @Randy Holmes-Farley I thought you wrote up something on your reefing page that debunked phosguard and leaking Al. I swore I read something like that or am I losing my mind.

Lol, no, I showed it did and Seachem tried and failed to discredit the work.

 

[Saltyanimals]

Lol, no, I showed it did and Seachem tried and failed to discredit the work.

So I was losing my mind thinking it was the complete opposite. I was unsuccessful finding the discussion where someone highlighted this as a debunked myth referring the experiment. The take away was that it could be use successfully and not leak Al if it was used correctly. Specifically a good rinse and not tumble which would break the material and release the AL bounded in it.

I was able to get my Al down a bit over the last 6 months. Was trying to get a head of a raising nutrient issue and intended to go back to phosguard since I still have some laying around. Glad I heard your response here otherwise I would have gone back down the same road and adding back the Al I was able to reduce. I think I should stop hoarding and throw the phosguard away if there's no safe use of it given GFO is equally available.

 

[JayFish4004]

So I was losing my mind thinking it was the complete opposite. I was unsuccessful finding the discussion where someone highlighted this as a debunked myth referring the experiment. The take away was that it could be use successfully and not leak Al if it was used correctly. Specifically a good rinse and not tumble which would break the material and release the AL bounded in it.

I was able to get my Al down a bit over the last 6 months. Was trying to get a head of a raising nutrient issue and intended to go back to phosguard since I still have some laying around. Glad I heard your response here otherwise I would have gone back down the same road and adding back the Al I was able to reduce. I think I should stop hoarding and throw the phosguard away if there's no safe use of it given GFO is equally available.

I will not use Phosguard again - whether it was the aluminum it released or the quick drop in phosphates - one of those 2 killed my torches and hammers. Tank is restabilized now using Rowaphos - another thing I am seeing is that these products do drop alk as well.