Dwarf angels

[jeff williams]

has anyone experienced a difference when treating coral beauty or flame angle with there sensetivity to Cupramine? I know angels are a bit more sensetive to cu than some fish, I was going to buy one or the other and noticed the flame angel description said highly sensitive to cu. we're as the coral beauty didn't say anything about sensetivity to cu. I have treated coral beauties with cupramine in the past but have no experience with the flame.

 

[Maritimer]

I've treated precisely one of each - and both survived - though I used Coppersafe, rather than Cupramine. (Had another flame that I got to with copper too late . . . )

Flames get that label, I think, in part because they've actually been the subject of a study or three, which I'm not sure coral beauties have been. The two are certainly very different fish! (Does your coral beauty resemble a perpetual-motion machine like mine?)

~Bruce

 

[jeff williams]

I've treated precisely one of each - and both survived - though I used Coppersafe, rather than Cupramine. (Had another flame that I got to with copper too late . . . )

Flames get that label, I think, in part because they've actually been the subject of a study or three, which I'm not sure coral beauties have been. The two are certainly very different fish! (Does your coral beauty resemble a perpetual-motion machine like mine?)

~Bruce

She did unfortunately she is no longer with me l miss he she was fun to watch

 

[GHsaltie]

According to @melypr1985 guide flames and coral beautys have the same level of sensitivity to ionic coppers. From general observation I have noticed flames seem to be more delicate however I do not have any personal experiences putting them through copper. I'll tag some others who can help you better. @Humblefish @aykwm @ngoodermuth

 

[jeff williams]

According to @melypr1985 guide flames and coral beautys have the same level of sensitivity to ionic coppers. From general observation I have noticed flames seem to be more delicate however I do not have any personal experiences putting them through copper. I'll tag some others who can help you better. @Humblefish @aykwm @ngoodermuth

Yea melypr1985 copper chart is very handy I did reference it just noticed the wholesaler chart had the flame at very sensitive to cu

 

[aykwm]

I know many that treated with copper with no issues, just make sure you ramp copper slowly over few days and observe for any stress signs, but in general you should be good.

Best of luck

 

[Cment]

I know many that treated with copper with no issues, just make sure you ramp copper slowly over few days and observe for any stress signs, but in general you should be good.

I agree. Most fish can handle copper if you increase the dosage by small amounts over a longer period of time. I even added copper several times a day over the course of 7-10days before it was a therapeutic levels for more sensitive fish.

 

[Maritimer]

~B.

 

[4FordFamily]

I actually never found angels sensitive to copper in the least. I have my own hypothesis about where this came from, but of the three or more dozen I've treated I lost perhaps one or two to what I suspect was copper sensitivity related. Half were treated with cupramine and half coppersafe.

A couple of my hypothesis include an intolerance to lower oxygen levels than many fish and meds reduce oxygen saturation. The remedy in this case is an airstone or pump breaking the surface.

Angels, particularly dwarf are particularly intolerant of even minuscule ammonia as well, another thing inherent in QT without diligent water changes if the QT is not established.

2 or so out of 40 or 50 is pretty low.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree. Most fish can handle copper if you increase the dosage by small amounts over a longer period of time. I even added copper several times a day over the course of 7-10days before it was a therapeutic levels for more sensitive fish.

I wonder if the reason for that is the copper has time to bind to organic matter in the water and become less bioavailable (less toxic but also possibly less therapeutic) when dosed more slowly. So the concentration of free (totally unbound) copper does not rise so high.

 

[4FordFamily]

I wonder if the reason for that is the copper has time to bind to organic matter in the water and become less bioavailable (less toxic but also possibly less therapeutic) when dosed more slowly. So the concentration of free (totally unbound) copper does not rise so high.

Thats pretty profound -- I just assumed the body could adapt to a more gradual change -- much like temp and salinity.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thats pretty profound -- I just assumed the body could adapt to a more gradual change -- much like temp and salinity.

That might be the case, but the binding effect seems at least as likely and is well supported by scientific studies.

Copper in seawater is well know to be almost entirely bound to organics, and binding of metals is also well known to modulate toxicity/bioavailability.

Example:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/etc.5620181108/full
Influence of dissolved organic matter on the toxicity of copper to Ceriodaphnia dubia: Effect of complexation kinetics
Abstract

The reaction kinetics of copper interaction with dissolved organic matter (DOM) in water were studied in order to determine the effect of equilibration period on the toxicity of copper to aquatic organisms. The changes in physical and chemical forms of the copper during four reaction times were examined in four completely mixed reactors in series; the bioavailability of the copper as a function of these new forms was then determined with a flow-through bioassay system, using Ceriodaphnia dubia as a test organism. This study showed that the toxicity of copper to C. dubia decreased with increasing copper-DOM reaction time, which demonstrated that the copper reaction rate with dissolved organic components in the test water was slow. The toxicity of copper to C. dubia was closely related to the measured free-copper concentration (Cu2+) rather than to the total copper concentrations, a fact that supports the free ion activity model. We found that the LC50 of copper for C. dubia increased (i.e., toxicity decreased) linearly with increasing total available binding sites. Although a similar trend was observed in both natural DOM and commercial humic acid, our results indicated that for a given copper-organic carbon ratio, copper binds more strongly to humic acid than to the natural DOM. This difference may be attributed to the greater copper binding affinity of humic acid (greater than that of other metal-binding organic fractions present in DOM, i.e., fulvic acid).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/f93-290#.WZXlrVGGMdU

Copper and Cadmium Binding to Fish Gills: Modification by Dissolved Organic Carbon and Synthetic Ligands
ABSTRACT
Adult fathead minnows (Pimephales promelas) were exposed to 17 g Cu∙L−1 or 6 g Cd∙L−1 for 2 to 3 h in synthetic softwater solutions at pH 6.2 containing either naturally-occurring, freeze-dried dissolved organic carbon (DOC) or synthetic ligands such as EDTA. After exposures, gills were assayed for bound Cu or Cd. As a first approximation, lake of origin or molecular size fraction of DOC did not influence Cu binding to gills, while DOC concentration did. DOC concentrations ≥4.8 mg∙L−1 prevented Cu from accumulating on fathead gills. At the relatively low concentrations used, neither Cu nor Cd interfered with binding of the other metal on gills, suggesting different gill binding sites. Cadmium accumulation on gills was more sensitive to increased concentrations of Ca and H+ than was Cu. Surprisingly, Cd bound to gills to the same or greater extent than did Cu: for synthetic ligands, Cd binds less well than Cu. This result corroborates previously published observations that Cd, unlike Cu, is taken up at gills through high affinity Ca channels. Accumulation of Cd on fish gills was never associated with 14C-labelled EDTA or 14C-citrate, indicating that free metal interacts with the gill while metal–ligand complexes usually do not.

 

[melypr1985]

Yea melypr1985 copper chart is very handy I did reference it just noticed the wholesaler chart had the flame at very sensitive to cu

The chart was a collective of experiences from many many experienced people here on the board. I have personally found flame angels to be more sensitive in general, but not necessarily just to copper. In fact, my experience has been that most dwarf angles do quite well in coppersafe and my angels don't get much of a ramp-up to get used to it. That's just my experience alone though. For the chart, I had to include all data and make a determination for sensitivity based on that.

 

[DSmithZ28]

The chart was a collective of experiences from many many experienced people here on the board. I have personally found flame angels to be more sensitive in general, but not necessarily just to copper. In fact, my experience has been that most dwarf angles do quite well in coppersafe and my angels don't get much of a ramp-up to get used to it. That's just my experience alone though. For the chart, I had to include all data and make a determination for sensitivity based on that.

So would you recommend copper safe over cupramine? I purchased a flame angel and a whitetail tang and they are both heading to QT together. I have been concerned with the copper on the flame angel. copper safe also needs a different copper test kit than cupramine correct?

 

[melypr1985]

So would you recommend copper safe over cupramine? I purchased a flame angel and a whitetail tang and they are both heading to QT together. I have been concerned with the copper on the flame angel. copper safe also needs a different copper test kit than cupramine correct?

Yes, I prefer coppersafe when I use copper. It uses the API copper test kit.

 

[Maritimer]

That's correct.

Like Melypr1985, I use CopperSafe and the API test - if you're using Cupramine, use the Seachem test kit.

~Bruce

 

[DSmithZ28]

I bought the Cupramine and Seachem test and it it will be here Tuesday when my fish get here. I scoured as much of the information I could and seemed like cupramine was used more often. Was going to dose it over 5-7 days to make sure they get used to it