Effectiveness of Dosing Probiotics to Water

[livinlifeinBKK]

Are probiotics very effective being dosed directly into the water? I know some probiotic supplements such as PNS Probio are supposed to help clean the tank of detritus while others such as Nitribiotic are said to help with health of fish and inverts but from my research the bacteria have to reach the digestive system of the host alive and in relatively large numbers to be effective with the exception of breeding in some cases...are there actually proven benefits if dosed to the water? And do supplements like PNS Probio that are supposed to help lower nitrates and phosphates and clear the tank of detritus really work much better than carbon dosing to feed the already present heterotrophic bacteria?

 

[thatguyoverthere]

Good question...I'm curious too so I'll bump the thread

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Good question...I'm curious too so I'll bump the thread

Thanks for the bump...

 

[thatguyoverthere]

imo they probably don't do a whole lot if they're not ingested

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Bump

imo they probably don't do a whole lot if they're not ingested

That's what I was thinking too but curious what others had to say...

 

[i cant think]

I don’t dose them, I don’t really think they do much to our tanks but it’s always better to be safe if you’re unsure about something.

 

[shootingstar_reef]

I don't know that this is something we as hobbyists can really say is or isn't happening; and I don't know that there are published articles on them as they are proprietary. There are articles on specific things in them (eg a single strain of bacteria), but no studies on the products as a whole.

I can only say, as a single anectodal story, that when I dosed PNS probio and yellow sno, my microfauna really flourished, and I got sponges all over my tank. Nothing else of note happened.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I don’t dose them, I don’t really think they do much to our tanks but it’s always better to be safe if you’re unsure about something.

I don't know that this is something we as hobbyists can really say is or isn't happening; and I don't know that there are published articles on them as they are proprietary. There are articles on specific things in them (eg a single strain of bacteria), but no studies on the products as a whole.

I can only say, as a single anectodal story, that when I dosed PNS probio and yellow sno, my microfauna really flourished, and I got sponges all over my tank. Nothing else of note happened.

Thanks for the replies...I tend to agree since there are so few published studies on aquarium inhabitants it's hard to tell just how much they may or may not be helping (although certain strains of bacteria have proven to be really useful in aquaculture, aquaculture conditions are much different than our aquariums)...that's interesting about the PNS Probio and Yello Sno though...

 

[Dan_P]

Are probiotics very effective being dosed directly into the water? I know some probiotic supplements such as PNS Probio are supposed to help clean the tank of detritus while others such as Nitribiotic are said to help with health of fish and inverts but from my research the bacteria have to reach the digestive system of the host alive and in relatively large numbers to be effective with the exception of breeding in some cases...are there actually proven benefits if dosed to the water? And do supplements like PNS Probio that are supposed to help lower nitrates and phosphates and clear the tank of detritus really work much better than carbon dosing to feed the already present heterotrophic bacteria?

Likely all useless.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Are probiotics very effective being dosed directly into the water? I know some probiotic supplements such as PNS Probio are supposed to help clean the tank of detritus while others such as Nitribiotic are said to help with health of fish and inverts but from my research the bacteria have to reach the digestive system of the host alive and in relatively large numbers to be effective with the exception of breeding in some cases...are there actually proven benefits if dosed to the water? And do supplements like PNS Probio that are supposed to help lower nitrates and phosphates and clear the tank of detritus really work much better than carbon dosing to feed the already present heterotrophic bacteria?

If we're using the term "probiotic" in the way I use it, I'd say that they are NOT particularly effective as probiotics when dosed directly into the water. To me (and according to some definitions), probiotics specifically are live microorganisms that live on/in a host organism (and of course impart some sort of benefit to that host). Microorganisms that are dispersed into the water column for the purpose of improving water quality should (in my opinion) be referred to as "bioremediators."

That being said, let me compare/contrast PNS ProBio and Nitribiotic. To be clear, I've never used the latter product; moreover, I can't say much about every species in it because the manufacturer has (for some reason) chosen not to provide that critical info.

Both products contain scientifically proven probiotic microbes (Rhodopseudomonas palustris in PNS ProBio and Bacillus subtilis, Saccharomyces sp. and Lactobacillus sp. in Nitribiotic). All of these are used in various probiotics made for everything from fish to chickens to humans. All of the above are capable of surviving in the harsh environment of the vertebrate (e.g., fish) digestive tract. However, as you indicated, the only way to introduce appreciable numbers of cells into the host's gut is to add the product directly to the food. To keep the bacteria on the food item (so that they actually get ingested), one needs to fix it to the food particle with some sort of binder, thoroughly mix/soak the culture into the food particle, or gut load the cultures into a live food item. While it's true that these bacteria (as well as the nitrifying bacteria and "purple bacteria" in Nitribiotic) all have practical uses outside of the fishes' guts, they'll provide very little probiotic effect. Even the true probiotics listed above will have limited effect unless properly administered in the food.

Yes, there are so many reasons why supplements like PNS ProBio (i.e., Rhodopseudomonas) work much better than carbon dosing to feed the already present heterotrophic bacteria. The first one is obvious: You don't have to add carbon. Dissolved organics like vinegar and ethanol reduce your ORP, and as they are consumed by the mainly aerobic heterotrophs in the water column, they contribute to water quality degradation (oxygen depletion, reduced pH, reduced clarity, etc.). Another reason is simply that not all heterotrophic bacteria are desirable (Vibrio is definitely a good example of that). Not only is Rhodopseudomonas harmless to all aquarium animals, it is indeed known as a probiotic of both fish and corals (and, it competes with many undesirable heterotrophs including Vibrio). In terms of consuming detritus, it is rather special. Unlike most other heterotrophs, this species possesses enzymes that enable it to degrade cellulose. A component of the cell walls of plants and algae, cellulose is very poorly digestible by most organisms, causing it to slowly accumulate as detritus in many systems (this is why Rhodopseudomonas or certain other purple non-sulfur bacteria are included as "sludge digesters" to eliminate leaf litter in some pond products). And one cool thing--while Rhodopseudomonas survives in aerobic environments, it prefers anaerobic environments where it consumes organic matter without consuming oxygen (i.e., no aerobic respiration). Finally, unlike most other heterotrophs, Rhodopseudomonas is facultatively autotrophic, meaning that when organic sources of carbon have been exhausted, it can switch metabolic pathways to utilize inorganic carbon such as CO2 (similarly to plants or algae, though it does this within an anaerobic niche).

I should mention the "purple bacteria" in Nitribiotic. It's unfortunate that the manufacturer only identifies this component with that very ambiguous term. They don't even identify whether it's a purple sulfur bacterium (PSB) or purple non-sulfur bacterium (PNSB), much less genus or species! But looking at the packaging, one could guess that it is a PSB based on the following: "The purple bacteria contained in NITRIBIOTIC oxidises toxic hydrogen sulphide to non-toxic sulphur and sulphate."

This is important for several reasons. First, PSB have no known true probiotic properties (none that I'm aware of, anyway). They are strictly anaerobic and for the most part obligately photoautotrophic. Some can grow heterotrophically in the dark on certain organic substances (though this certainly doesn't include any recalcitrant organics like cellulose). So, while they're great for controlling H2S concentrations, they do little to control detritus (whereas PNSB at excel at that) and likely provide no probiotic benefits (whereas, again, certain PNSB such as Rhodopseudomonas excel at that). Unlike PSB, PNSB can perform denitrification. And so on...

The species in these products appear to be completely different. They are also quite complimentary. Even where they both contain probiotics, they are complimentary (e.g., studies show a synergistic effect between Rhodopseudomonas and Bacillus in the animal gut). If the "purple bacteria" in Nitribiotic are indeed PSB as it seems, then they are ecologically complimentary to the PNSB in PNS ProBio.

Finally, as a coral food (and, arguably, as a coral probiotic), PNSB are by far the most nutritious and palatable of all the types of bacteria listed above. This is why the single-species product PNS ProBio is absolutely loaded with PNSB cells and is sold primarily as a live food/probiotic. Rhodopseudomonas is pretty good as a bioremediator (especially for controlling detritus), but is most notable for its exceptional nutritional content (fatty acids, carotenoids, etc.).

Hope that helps, and thanks for drawing my attention to Nitribiotic, which also looks like a promising product (though for storage purposes the nitrifiers should be in a separate bottle/product, in my opinion--but the marketing power of an all-in-one product is just too irresistible for some, I guess).

You might find these articles interesting:

R. palustris Reliably Consumes Plant/Macroalgal Rubbish

Pondkeepers as well as freshwater and marine aquarists (especially in commercial operations) are increasingly relying on purple non-sulfur bacteria (PNSB) to remediate wastewater. Though these microbes are generally used to target excess nitrogenous compounds (ammonia, nitrate, etc.), they are...

www.hydrospace.store

Purple Non-Sulfur Bacteria as a Probiotic Aquarium Food Additive

In recent years, we’ve seen a heightened interest in probiotic products throughout the aquarium industry. This development closely follows an increased use of probiotic microbes in various agricultural sectors, including aquaculture, over the last decade. Such is fairly understandable, as...

www.hydrospace.store

 

[Dan_P]

If we're using the term "probiotic" in the way I use it, I'd say that they are NOT particularly effective as probiotics when dosed directly into the water. To me (and according to some definitions), probiotics specifically are live microorganisms that live on/in a host organism (and of course impart some sort of benefit to that host). Microorganisms that are dispersed into the water column for the purpose of improving water quality should (in my opinion) be referred to as "bioremediators."

That being said, let me compare/contrast PNS ProBio and Nitribiotic. To be clear, I've never used the latter product; moreover, I can't say much about every species in it because the manufacturer has (for some reason) chosen not to provide that critical info.

Both products contain scientifically proven probiotic microbes (Rhodopseudomonas palustris in PNS ProBio and Bacillus subtilis, Saccharomyces sp. and Lactobacillus sp. in Nitribiotic). All of these are used in various probiotics made for everything from fish to chickens to humans. All of the above are capable of surviving in the harsh environment of the vertebrate (e.g., fish) digestive tract. However, as you indicated, the only way to introduce appreciable numbers of cells into the host's gut is to add the product directly to the food. To keep the bacteria on the food item (so that they actually get ingested), one needs to fix it to the food particle with some sort of binder, thoroughly mix/soak the culture into the food particle, or gut load the cultures into a live food item. While it's true that these bacteria (as well as the nitrifying bacteria and "purple bacteria" in Nitribiotic) all have practical uses outside of the fishes' guts, they'll provide very little probiotic effect. Even the true probiotics listed above will have limited effect unless properly administered in the food.

Yes, there are so many reasons why supplements like PNS ProBio (i.e., Rhodopseudomonas) work much better than carbon dosing to feed the already present heterotrophic bacteria. The first one is obvious: You don't have to add carbon. Dissolved organics like vinegar and ethanol reduce your ORP, and as they are consumed by the mainly aerobic heterotrophs in the water column, they contribute to water quality degradation (oxygen depletion, reduced pH, reduced clarity, etc.). Another reason is simply that not all heterotrophic bacteria are desirable (Vibrio is definitely a good example of that). Not only is Rhodopseudomonas harmless to all aquarium animals, it is indeed known as a probiotic of both fish and corals (and, it competes with many undesirable heterotrophs including Vibrio). In terms of consuming detritus, it is rather special. Unlike most other heterotrophs, this species possesses enzymes that enable it to degrade cellulose. A component of the cell walls of plants and algae, cellulose is very poorly digestible by most organisms, causing it to slowly accumulate as detritus in many systems (this is why Rhodopseudomonas or certain other purple non-sulfur bacteria are included as "sludge digesters" to eliminate leaf litter in some pond products). And one cool thing--while Rhodopseudomonas survives in aerobic environments, it prefers anaerobic environments where it consumes organic matter without consuming oxygen (i.e., no aerobic respiration). Finally, unlike most other heterotrophs, Rhodopseudomonas is facultatively autotrophic, meaning that when organic sources of carbon have been exhausted, it can switch metabolic pathways to utilize inorganic carbon such as CO2 (similarly to plants or algae, though it does this within an anaerobic niche).

I should mention the "purple bacteria" in Nitribiotic. It's unfortunate that the manufacturer only identifies this component with that very ambiguous term. They don't even identify whether it's a purple sulfur bacterium (PSB) or purple non-sulfur bacterium (PNSB), much less genus or species! But looking at the packaging, one could guess that it is a PSB based on the following: "The purple bacteria contained in NITRIBIOTIC oxidises toxic hydrogen sulphide to non-toxic sulphur and sulphate."

This is important for several reasons. First, PSB have no known true probiotic properties (none that I'm aware of, anyway). They are strictly anaerobic and for the most part obligately photoautotrophic. Some can grow heterotrophically in the dark on certain organic substances (though this certainly doesn't include any recalcitrant organics like cellulose). So, while they're great for controlling H2S concentrations, they do little to control detritus (whereas PNSB at excel at that) and likely provide no probiotic benefits (whereas, again, certain PNSB such as Rhodopseudomonas excel at that). Unlike PSB, PNSB can perform denitrification. And so on...

The species in these products appear to be completely different. They are also quite complimentary. Even where they both contain probiotics, they are complimentary (e.g., studies show a synergistic effect between Rhodopseudomonas and Bacillus in the animal gut). If the "purple bacteria" in Nitribiotic are indeed PSB as it seems, then they are ecologically complimentary to the PNSB in PNS ProBio.

Finally, as a coral food (and, arguably, as a coral probiotic), PNSB are by far the most nutritious and palatable of all the types of bacteria listed above. This is why the single-species product PNS ProBio is absolutely loaded with PNSB cells and is sold primarily as a live food/probiotic. Rhodopseudomonas is pretty good as a bioremediator (especially for controlling detritus), but is most notable for its exceptional nutritional content (fatty acids, carotenoids, etc.).

Hope that helps, and thanks for drawing my attention to Nitribiotic, which also looks like a promising product (though for storage purposes the nitrifiers should be in a separate bottle/product, in my opinion--but the marketing power of an all-in-one product is just too irresistible for some, I guess).

You might find these articles interesting:

R. palustris Reliably Consumes Plant/Macroalgal Rubbish

Pondkeepers as well as freshwater and marine aquarists (especially in commercial operations) are increasingly relying on purple non-sulfur bacteria (PNSB) to remediate wastewater. Though these microbes are generally used to target excess nitrogenous compounds (ammonia, nitrate, etc.), they are...

www.hydrospace.store

Purple Non-Sulfur Bacteria as a Probiotic Aquarium Food Additive

In recent years, we’ve seen a heightened interest in probiotic products throughout the aquarium industry. This development closely follows an increased use of probiotic microbes in various agricultural sectors, including aquaculture, over the last decade. Such is fairly understandable, as...

www.hydrospace.store

Just to be clear these are written by the manufacturer. Not implying what they are saying is untrue, just that they have a vested interest in sounding positive about the bacteria’s effect.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

If we're using the term "probiotic" in the way I use it, I'd say that they are NOT particularly effective as probiotics when dosed directly into the water. To me (and according to some definitions), probiotics specifically are live microorganisms that live on/in a host organism (and of course impart some sort of benefit to that host). Microorganisms that are dispersed into the water column for the purpose of improving water quality should (in my opinion) be referred to as "bioremediators."

That being said, let me compare/contrast PNS ProBio and Nitribiotic. To be clear, I've never used the latter product; moreover, I can't say much about every species in it because the manufacturer has (for some reason) chosen not to provide that critical info.

Both products contain scientifically proven probiotic microbes (Rhodopseudomonas palustris in PNS ProBio and Bacillus subtilis, Saccharomyces sp. and Lactobacillus sp. in Nitribiotic). All of these are used in various probiotics made for everything from fish to chickens to humans. All of the above are capable of surviving in the harsh environment of the vertebrate (e.g., fish) digestive tract. However, as you indicated, the only way to introduce appreciable numbers of cells into the host's gut is to add the product directly to the food. To keep the bacteria on the food item (so that they actually get ingested), one needs to fix it to the food particle with some sort of binder, thoroughly mix/soak the culture into the food particle, or gut load the cultures into a live food item. While it's true that these bacteria (as well as the nitrifying bacteria and "purple bacteria" in Nitribiotic) all have practical uses outside of the fishes' guts, they'll provide very little probiotic effect. Even the true probiotics listed above will have limited effect unless properly administered in the food.

Yes, there are so many reasons why supplements like PNS ProBio (i.e., Rhodopseudomonas) work much better than carbon dosing to feed the already present heterotrophic bacteria. The first one is obvious: You don't have to add carbon. Dissolved organics like vinegar and ethanol reduce your ORP, and as they are consumed by the mainly aerobic heterotrophs in the water column, they contribute to water quality degradation (oxygen depletion, reduced pH, reduced clarity, etc.). Another reason is simply that not all heterotrophic bacteria are desirable (Vibrio is definitely a good example of that). Not only is Rhodopseudomonas harmless to all aquarium animals, it is indeed known as a probiotic of both fish and corals (and, it competes with many undesirable heterotrophs including Vibrio). In terms of consuming detritus, it is rather special. Unlike most other heterotrophs, this species possesses enzymes that enable it to degrade cellulose. A component of the cell walls of plants and algae, cellulose is very poorly digestible by most organisms, causing it to slowly accumulate as detritus in many systems (this is why Rhodopseudomonas or certain other purple non-sulfur bacteria are included as "sludge digesters" to eliminate leaf litter in some pond products). And one cool thing--while Rhodopseudomonas survives in aerobic environments, it prefers anaerobic environments where it consumes organic matter without consuming oxygen (i.e., no aerobic respiration). Finally, unlike most other heterotrophs, Rhodopseudomonas is facultatively autotrophic, meaning that when organic sources of carbon have been exhausted, it can switch metabolic pathways to utilize inorganic carbon such as CO2 (similarly to plants or algae, though it does this within an anaerobic niche).

I should mention the "purple bacteria" in Nitribiotic. It's unfortunate that the manufacturer only identifies this component with that very ambiguous term. They don't even identify whether it's a purple sulfur bacterium (PSB) or purple non-sulfur bacterium (PNSB), much less genus or species! But looking at the packaging, one could guess that it is a PSB based on the following: "The purple bacteria contained in NITRIBIOTIC oxidises toxic hydrogen sulphide to non-toxic sulphur and sulphate."

This is important for several reasons. First, PSB have no known true probiotic properties (none that I'm aware of, anyway). They are strictly anaerobic and for the most part obligately photoautotrophic. Some can grow heterotrophically in the dark on certain organic substances (though this certainly doesn't include any recalcitrant organics like cellulose). So, while they're great for controlling H2S concentrations, they do little to control detritus (whereas PNSB at excel at that) and likely provide no probiotic benefits (whereas, again, certain PNSB such as Rhodopseudomonas excel at that). Unlike PSB, PNSB can perform denitrification. And so on...

The species in these products appear to be completely different. They are also quite complimentary. Even where they both contain probiotics, they are complimentary (e.g., studies show a synergistic effect between Rhodopseudomonas and Bacillus in the animal gut). If the "purple bacteria" in Nitribiotic are indeed PSB as it seems, then they are ecologically complimentary to the PNSB in PNS ProBio.

Finally, as a coral food (and, arguably, as a coral probiotic), PNSB are by far the most nutritious and palatable of all the types of bacteria listed above. This is why the single-species product PNS ProBio is absolutely loaded with PNSB cells and is sold primarily as a live food/probiotic. Rhodopseudomonas is pretty good as a bioremediator (especially for controlling detritus), but is most notable for its exceptional nutritional content (fatty acids, carotenoids, etc.).

Hope that helps, and thanks for drawing my attention to Nitribiotic, which also looks like a promising product (though for storage purposes the nitrifiers should be in a separate bottle/product, in my opinion--but the marketing power of an all-in-one product is just too irresistible for some, I guess).

You might find these articles interesting:

R. palustris Reliably Consumes Plant/Macroalgal Rubbish

Pondkeepers as well as freshwater and marine aquarists (especially in commercial operations) are increasingly relying on purple non-sulfur bacteria (PNSB) to remediate wastewater. Though these microbes are generally used to target excess nitrogenous compounds (ammonia, nitrate, etc.), they are...

www.hydrospace.store

Purple Non-Sulfur Bacteria as a Probiotic Aquarium Food Additive

In recent years, we’ve seen a heightened interest in probiotic products throughout the aquarium industry. This development closely follows an increased use of probiotic microbes in various agricultural sectors, including aquaculture, over the last decade. Such is fairly understandable, as...

www.hydrospace.store

Thanks for the detailed response! Unfortunately PNS Probio isn't available yet where I am but I'll keep an eye out for it. What you were saying about the Nitribiotic is pretty much what I suspect as well. I'll contact them out of curiosity to see if they're willing to say what the Purple Bacterial species is (tbh the fact that they identified the other bacteria is more than most companies are willing to do).

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Just to be clear these are written by the manufacturer. Not implying what they are saying is untrue, just that they have a vested interest in sounding positive about the bacteria’s effect.

With all the positive effects that have been published about probiotics in aquaculture, it's a given that aquarium supplement manufacturers would be all over it hyping new products that contain any bacteria (and even yeast) that could possibly be considered probiotic even though there have been very few studies carried out regarding their effects on aquarium species (or at least I couldn't find many published studies at all)

 

[Lasse]

I´ll think that you should differ between Probiotic for your animals and Probiotics for the whole system (read aquarium)

Can bacteria added to the water column act as probiotic for the whole system (aquarium)? IMO - yes but mostly during certain circumstances. The most important factor is - IMO - how strong the original microfauna is and how much of the system is occupied of other bacteria. The most use I can see is in new and clean system but - IMO - it is important to only dose autotrophic nitrification bacteria during the first 2-3 weeks and when the nitrification cycle is well established. After that - it could be positive to dose desired strains of heterotrophic bacteria. The reason for not dosing them at the same time is that the heterotrophic bacteria grow much faster than the nitrification bacteria and can therefore compete with them in terms of attachment surfaces.

I can see a microscopic chance that it can have a long time effect changing the microbiome too - but I think that the dose must be high and continuous which can have other (negative) effects

Can bacteria added to the water column act as probiotic for fish? Even here - its - IMO - also maybe. For fish - bacteria - both living internal (digestive tract) and external (mostly the slime/skin of the fish) - are very important. Internal - the same as for us but external - probably much more important. If a fish skin/slime are occupied of friendly bacteria (read bacteria that the fish immune system can handle in the given situation) - attacks from bacteria strains (or other microbes) that the immune system of the fish can´t handle (for the moment) can be avoided because lack of space for attaching. (The buss is already full and you will be kicked out ) From an external point of view - probiotics can - IMO - be important when the external content of bacteria (in the skin/slime) has been lowered (by medication as an example and/or a stress related situation)

Even here I can see a chance that it can have a long time effect changing the microbiome too - maybe probably higher chances because there are more often uncolonized surfaces because the mucus is rejected at regular intervals

Can it work as probiotic in an internal way too. If anyone thinks distributing probiotics in food helps - my answer must be that it works with addition in the water column too - if we are talking about saltwater fish. But not if we are talking about freshwater fish. The reason is simply of osmotic reasons. Saltwater fish drinks, freshwater fish do not drink. It means - for saltwater fish - what´s in the water - is in the digestive tract!

Personally - I´m not total convinced that Probiotics always work even for us. If our bacteria concentration in the digestive tract is not existed (new born) or limited (by medication, stress or illness) - it certainly works - but during normal stable conditions it may be a question of dose.

These bacteria we talk about needs an organic carbon source and its normally limited in an aquarium - limited in this case means that the actual biomass of heterotrophic bacteria can´t grow. The new added "probiotic" bacteria must therefore compete for both DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) and location in order to grow and take over if we are talking about probiotic for the whole system.

If we are talking about external/internal probiotic for the fish - it can be different because the needed carbon is internal produced. Here is space more limited - IMO.

purple sulfur bacterium (PSB) or purple non-sulfur bacterium (PNSB),

Especially PNSB can be of huge interest - but - IMO - it needs tha someone construct a anaerobic filter with light (and no oxygen production). May be an interesting task. . I have some thoughts to put in glass/acrylic rods through my DSB. (its located below my reversed refugium) and test

Its important to stress that what I highlight above is my personal opinion and its only based on biological and ecological principles that I am aware of. There is too many parameters involved - for me its totally impossible to say a clear - it works or its not works.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I´ll think that you should differ between Probiotic for your animals and Probiotics for the whole system (read aquarium)

Can bacteria added to the water column act as probiotic for the whole system (aquarium)? IMO - yes but mostly during certain circumstances. The most important factor is - IMO - how strong the original microfauna is and how much of the system is occupied of other bacteria. The most use I can see is in new and clean system but - IMO - it is important to only dose autotrophic nitrification bacteria during the first 2-3 weeks and when the nitrification cycle is well established. After that - it could be positive to dose desired strains of heterotrophic bacteria. The reason for not dosing them at the same time is that the heterotrophic bacteria grow much faster than the nitrification bacteria and can therefore compete with them in terms of attachment surfaces.

I can see a microscopic chance that it can have a long time effect changing the microbiome too - but I think that the dose must be high and continuous which can have other (negative) effects

Can bacteria added to the water column act as probiotic for fish? Even here - its - IMO - also maybe. For fish - bacteria - both living internal (digestive tract) and external (mostly the slime/skin of the fish) - are very important. Internal - the same as for us but external - probably much more important. If a fish skin/slime are occupied of friendly bacteria (read bacteria that the fish immune system can handle in the given situation) - attacks from bacteria strains (or other microbes) that the immune system of the fish can´t handle (for the moment) can be avoided because lack of space for attaching. (The buss is already full and you will be kicked out ) From an external point of view - probiotics can - IMO - be important when the external content of bacteria (in the skin/slime) has been lowered (by medication as an example and/or a stress related situation)

Even here I can see a chance that it can have a long time effect changing the microbiome too - maybe probably higher chances because there are more often uncolonized surfaces because the mucus is rejected at regular intervals

Can it work as probiotic in an internal way too. If anyone thinks distributing probiotics in food helps - my answer must be that it works with addition in the water column too - if we are talking about saltwater fish. But not if we are talking about freshwater fish. The reason is simply of osmotic reasons. Saltwater fish drinks, freshwater fish do not drink. It means - for saltwater fish - what´s in the water - is in the digestive tract!

Personally - I´m not total convinced that Probiotics always work even for us. If our bacteria concentration in the digestive tract is not existed (new born) or limited (by medication, stress or illness) - it certainly works - but during normal stable conditions it may be a question of dose.

These bacteria we talk about needs an organic carbon source and its normally limited in an aquarium - limited in this case means that the actual biomass of heterotrophic bacteria can´t grow. The new added "probiotic" bacteria must therefore compete for both DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) and location in order to grow and take over if we are talking about probiotic for the whole system.

If we are talking about external/internal probiotic for the fish - it can be different because the needed carbon is internal produced. Here is space more limited - IMO.


Especially PNSB can be of huge interest - but - IMO - it needs tha someone construct a anaerobic filter with light (and no oxygen production). May be an interesting task. . I have some thoughts to put in glass/acrylic rods through my DSB. (its located below my reversed refugium) and test

Its important to stress that what I highlight above is my personal opinion and its only based on biological and ecological principles that I am aware of. There is too many parameters involved - for me its totally impossible to say a clear - it works or its not works.

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I bought a bottle of Nitribiotic several months ago and still dose it twice a week although i personally doubt it has a very big effect on anything even though I dose a good bit more than directed. (Might as well use the whole bottle though)...it seems to me that in an established tank any bacteria added would have a lot of trouble competing with bacteria already present in the system including PNS bacteria (btw, are they obligate anaerobes or facultative? If they're obligate anaerobes wouldn't they be particularly susceptible to competition from aerobic bacteria and therefore have to be continually dosed in relatively large numbers?)

Oh and the reason I lumped together probiotics for the whole system and probiotics for the animals is because probiotics that are supposed to be added to the water are usually marketed as being beneficial for both. Nitribiotic and PNS Probio are both supposed to contribute to both causes although I was just using them as two examples.

 

[Dan_P]

With all the positive effects that have been published about probiotics in aquaculture, it's a given that aquarium supplement manufacturers would be all over it hyping new products that contain any bacteria (and even yeast) that could possibly be considered probiotic even though there have been very few studies carried out regarding their effects on aquarium species (or at least I couldn't find many published studies at all)

I like ^^^

 

[Lasse]

PNS bacteria (btw, are they obligate anaerobes or facultative?

As I know - PSB are obligate anaerobes, On the other hand PNSB bacteria is facultative but have different outcome in different environment.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Thanks for the detailed response! Unfortunately PNS Probio isn't available yet where I am but I'll keep an eye out for it. What you were saying about the Nitribiotic is pretty much what I suspect as well. I'll contact them out of curiosity to see if they're willing to say what the Purple Bacterial species is (tbh the fact that they identified the other bacteria is more than most companies are willing to do).

Quite welcome. I think I've mentioned in our past convos that SustainableSolutions9 in Singapore supplies PNS ProBio to your region.

Yes, would interesting to hear what Hans says.

Exactly haha, most of the time manufacturers are even far more vague than that.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

btw, are they obligate anaerobes or facultative? If they're obligate anaerobes wouldn't they be particularly susceptible to competition from aerobic bacteria and therefore have to be continually dosed in relatively large numbers?

You might find this informative. http://archive.bio.ed.ac.uk/jdeacon/microbes/winograd.htm

 

[Hans-Werner]

Some interesting statements of Kenneth Wingerter that where new to me.

Since Rhodopseudomonas palustris is an (nearly) ubiquitous bacterium that should be present in most tanks anyway this might explain positive effects of biopolymers added to reef tanks (like Reef-Actif and NP-Bacto-Pellets). As Kenneth mentioned above, Rhodopseudomonas palustris seems a good degrader of diverse and also quite persistent biopolymers.

Of course I already knew that the positive effects observed after the additions of biopolymers are mainly prebiotic effects (feeding beneficial microorganisms) but I had problems to narrow it down to certain genera yet. I was always convinced that the prebiotic approach is even more effective than the probiotic approach and have communicated this quite open.

Does anyone know whether the @AquaBiomics analysis does include the group Rhodopseudomonas belongs to? Should be Nitrobacteraceae. Maybe an idea for Eli Meyer? I would be interested what he thinks about Rhodopseudomonas. It is always good to have a second opinion and to widen the discussion a bit.