Erythromycin next for Fin and Tail damage on Powder Brown

[nickijon]

We’ve had the powder brown for 3 weeks. Acclimation went well, but on week 2 started showing signs of a small head bump surface injury. After treatment of Kanaplex, it has progressed into fin and tail rot. I’m not seeing it as aggression. Tank mates are derasa clam, firefish, tiny clownfish, 2x blue-green chromis, yellow watchman goby, and a 2.5“ hitchhiker fish that arrived on some macroalgae, we currently think is a small chalk bass. Chalk bass is almost never seen out and about.

Our medicine cabinet consists of:

Kanaplex	karamycin based powder
E.M. Erythromycin	powder by API, no further details on packaging
Metroplex	metronidazole 70% powder
PraziPro	Hikari’s praziquantel liquid
Kordon Rapid-Cure	Triethylene Glycol, Polyvinyl-pyrolidone K-29, and Malachite Green

120g DT, 100g sump tank
Temperature 73-75 (sump in garage, so lots of fresh air, but hard to keep temps high in winter)
Salinity 36 ppt
Nitrate, Nitrite, and Ammonia are all undetectable
Reef Crystals 5% water change weekly (10 gallons on a ~200g system)


Here’s what we did. Last week, completed full course (3 treatments) of Kanaplex onto frozen food: Hikari reef riot Herbivore and Hikari Rotifers. Last dose was on Sunday Nov. 20. Head injury completely gone. But migrated to tail fin.

Diet—tank is fed 2-3x a day with either Hikari-saki herbivore and carnivore pellets, or frozen Hikari fish food. Small portions of nori sheets available tucked into rock crevice.

Starting again Day 1: Prominent tail rot. Still eating, but less active swimming. Last night I attempted to measure for stray voltage using a multimeter. On AC setting, it occasionally fluctuates around a low but non-zero number. I understand this is likely induction? caused fluctuations. Never reads 110v or similar. Still, I’ve unplugged powerheads in the DT and skimmer pump, I’ve kept heaters on, and doubled return pump power through sump. Removed bag of activated carbon, after reading that carbon dust or poor quality GAC could be hurting more than helping.

Today, Nov 22 Day 2: Looking a bit more active, still eating, but tail rot continues and fins beginning to rot as well.

Considering Erythromcyin next, though I’m not sure it’s the right application based on other threads I’ve read.

We are going to do everything to save this tang. We could really use some help. Day 2 video of the tang is below. What to do, fish medics?

41s Video Day 2

-J

 

[MnFish1]

We’ve had the powder brown for 3 weeks. Acclimation went well, but on week 2 started showing signs of a small head bump surface injury. After treatment of Kanaplex, it has progressed into fin and tail rot. I’m not seeing it as aggression. Tank mates are derasa clam, firefish, tiny clownfish, 2x blue-green chromis, yellow watchman goby, and a 2.5“ hitchhiker fish that arrived on some macroalgae, we currently think is a small chalk bass. Chalk bass is almost never seen out and about.

Our medicine cabinet consists of:

Kanaplex	karamycin based powder
E.M. Erythromycin	powder by API, no further details on packaging
Metroplex	metronidazole 70% powder
PraziPro	Hikari’s praziquantel liquid
Kordon Rapid-Cure	Triethylene Glycol, Polyvinyl-pyrolidone K-29, and Malachite Green

120g DT, 100g sump tank
Temperature 73-75 (sump in garage, so lots of fresh air, but hard to keep temps high in winter)
Salinity 36 ppt
Nitrate, Nitrite, and Ammonia are all undetectable
Reef Crystals 5% water change weekly (10 gallons on a ~200g system)


Here’s what we did. Last week, completed full course (3 treatments) of Kanaplex onto frozen food: Hikari reef riot Herbivore and Hikari Rotifers. Last dose was on Sunday Nov. 20. Head injury completely gone. But migrated to tail fin.

Diet—tank is fed 2-3x a day with either Hikari-saki herbivore and carnivore pellets, or frozen Hikari fish food. Small portions of nori sheets available tucked into rock crevice.

Starting again Day 1: Prominent tail rot. Still eating, but less active swimming. Last night I attempted to measure for stray voltage using a multimeter. On AC setting, it occasionally fluctuates around a low but non-zero number. I understand this is likely induction? caused fluctuations. Never reads 110v or similar. Still, I’ve unplugged powerheads in the DT and skimmer pump, I’ve kept heaters on, and doubled return pump power through sump. Removed bag of activated carbon, after reading that carbon dust or poor quality GAC could be hurting more than helping.

Today, Nov 22 Day 2: Looking a bit more active, still eating, but tail rot continues and fins beginning to rot as well.

Considering Erythromcyin next, though I’m not sure it’s the right application based on other threads I’ve read.

We are going to do everything to save this tang. We could really use some help. Day 2 video of the tang is below. What to do, fish medics?



-J

Thanks for the detailed description - unfortunately I cannot see the video - would you be able to post a picture? Are there other symptoms? Are other fish affected? I do not think that oral kanaplex for 3 treatments would be enough.

The most common cause of this would be an injury - (tank mate aggression or something else) - followed by secondary infection. Treatment would usually be done in a hospital tank - with a broad spectrum antibiotic (kanamycin or neomycin would both be fine). Continue treatment until resolution - and try to resist the temptation to change antibiotics if it does not immediately resolve I.e. in a day or 2.

Also carefully check your parameters, increase oxygenation, Also watch carefully for tank mate agression.

 

[vetteguy53081]

We’ve had the powder brown for 3 weeks. Acclimation went well, but on week 2 started showing signs of a small head bump surface injury. After treatment of Kanaplex, it has progressed into fin and tail rot. I’m not seeing it as aggression. Tank mates are derasa clam, firefish, tiny clownfish, 2x blue-green chromis, yellow watchman goby, and a 2.5“ hitchhiker fish that arrived on some macroalgae, we currently think is a small chalk bass. Chalk bass is almost never seen out and about.

Our medicine cabinet consists of:

Kanaplex	karamycin based powder
E.M. Erythromycin	powder by API, no further details on packaging
Metroplex	metronidazole 70% powder
PraziPro	Hikari’s praziquantel liquid
Kordon Rapid-Cure	Triethylene Glycol, Polyvinyl-pyrolidone K-29, and Malachite Green

120g DT, 100g sump tank
Temperature 73-75 (sump in garage, so lots of fresh air, but hard to keep temps high in winter)
Salinity 36 ppt
Nitrate, Nitrite, and Ammonia are all undetectable
Reef Crystals 5% water change weekly (10 gallons on a ~200g system)


Here’s what we did. Last week, completed full course (3 treatments) of Kanaplex onto frozen food: Hikari reef riot Herbivore and Hikari Rotifers. Last dose was on Sunday Nov. 20. Head injury completely gone. But migrated to tail fin.

Diet—tank is fed 2-3x a day with either Hikari-saki herbivore and carnivore pellets, or frozen Hikari fish food. Small portions of nori sheets available tucked into rock crevice.

Starting again Day 1: Prominent tail rot. Still eating, but less active swimming. Last night I attempted to measure for stray voltage using a multimeter. On AC setting, it occasionally fluctuates around a low but non-zero number. I understand this is likely induction? caused fluctuations. Never reads 110v or similar. Still, I’ve unplugged powerheads in the DT and skimmer pump, I’ve kept heaters on, and doubled return pump power through sump. Removed bag of activated carbon, after reading that carbon dust or poor quality GAC could be hurting more than helping.

Today, Nov 22 Day 2: Looking a bit more active, still eating, but tail rot continues and fins beginning to rot as well.

Considering Erythromcyin next, though I’m not sure it’s the right application based on other threads I’ve read.

We are going to do everything to save this tang. We could really use some help. Day 2 video of the tang is below. What to do, fish medics?



-J

While this appears as fin and tail rot it also looks like the tail may have been nipped and turned into infection. You dont want ethro, but rather Maracyn 2 which addresses this Or seachem Kanaplex would be good but you would have needed to remove carbon, turn off UV if present and remove carbon for at least 5 days for it to work.
Water quality plays importance here also. You stated ammonia and nitrate level are undetectable which I find odd with bacterial issue.
Please Take a good size water sample to a trusted LFS that does not use Api kits and see what readings they come up with and to compare with yours.

 

[MnFish1]

PS - I think the problem is not that you used kanaplex - its that you gave it orally - as compared to a bath and the duration of treatment was too short. Since you have kanaplex on hand - I would use that - if you can - in a hospital tank. Follow the dosing instructions on the particular brand you have. The good news is - with treatment this will usually improve.

 

[nickijon]

Thanks so very much! In the time it took me to fix the video upload, you’ve all been on it!

Video link should work in any browser now..

 

[nickijon]

PS - I think the problem is not that you used kanaplex - its that you gave it orally - as compared to a bath and the duration of treatment was too short. Since you have kanaplex on hand - I would use that - if you can - in a hospital tank. Follow the dosing instructions on the particular brand you have. The good news is - with treatment this will usually improve.

We are setting up our spare 40B for hospital tank now. Will fill 1/2 way for 20g volume. Will try a different test kit for basic parameters as well!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

We’ve had the powder brown for 3 weeks. Acclimation went well, but on week 2 started showing signs of a small head bump surface injury. After treatment of Kanaplex, it has progressed into fin and tail rot. I’m not seeing it as aggression. Tank mates are derasa clam, firefish, tiny clownfish, 2x blue-green chromis, yellow watchman goby, and a 2.5“ hitchhiker fish that arrived on some macroalgae, we currently think is a small chalk bass. Chalk bass is almost never seen out and about.

Our medicine cabinet consists of:

Kanaplex	karamycin based powder
E.M. Erythromycin	powder by API, no further details on packaging
Metroplex	metronidazole 70% powder
PraziPro	Hikari’s praziquantel liquid
Kordon Rapid-Cure	Triethylene Glycol, Polyvinyl-pyrolidone K-29, and Malachite Green

120g DT, 100g sump tank
Temperature 73-75 (sump in garage, so lots of fresh air, but hard to keep temps high in winter)
Salinity 36 ppt
Nitrate, Nitrite, and Ammonia are all undetectable
Reef Crystals 5% water change weekly (10 gallons on a ~200g system)


Here’s what we did. Last week, completed full course (3 treatments) of Kanaplex onto frozen food: Hikari reef riot Herbivore and Hikari Rotifers. Last dose was on Sunday Nov. 20. Head injury completely gone. But migrated to tail fin.

Diet—tank is fed 2-3x a day with either Hikari-saki herbivore and carnivore pellets, or frozen Hikari fish food. Small portions of nori sheets available tucked into rock crevice.

Starting again Day 1: Prominent tail rot. Still eating, but less active swimming. Last night I attempted to measure for stray voltage using a multimeter. On AC setting, it occasionally fluctuates around a low but non-zero number. I understand this is likely induction? caused fluctuations. Never reads 110v or similar. Still, I’ve unplugged powerheads in the DT and skimmer pump, I’ve kept heaters on, and doubled return pump power through sump. Removed bag of activated carbon, after reading that carbon dust or poor quality GAC could be hurting more than helping.

Today, Nov 22 Day 2: Looking a bit more active, still eating, but tail rot continues and fins beginning to rot as well.

Considering Erythromcyin next, though I’m not sure it’s the right application based on other threads I’ve read.

We are going to do everything to save this tang. We could really use some help. Day 2 video of the tang is below. What to do, fish medics?

41s Video Day 2

-J

Ugh - I just posted and it looks like all the text I wrote was deleted !
The stray voltage is a red herring, skip that as a cause. Oral antibiotics for external bacterial infections are a poor choice, especially since the dose is unknown. Can you treat the tang in an antibiotic bath?
Jay

 

[nickijon]

Will try the antibiotic bath as soon as the QT tank temp is up to 74 tonight. Will also attempt to move the larger blue-green chromis into the sump for a time out.

Original video link doesn’t work anymore, not sure why.
video Day 2, re-uploaded

Vimeo version but may be blurry

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I was able to view the video - this is most likely a bacterial infection that got started with some injury issues. Trouble is, you will need to manage the ammonia in the treatment tank, and that can be a real trick. New tank, being dosed with antibiotics is not conducive to beneficial bacteria. Can you move to bio filter material over from your DT?

Jay

 

[nickijon]

Re-arranged some rockwork last night while waiting for the QT to be ready, moved the tang over this morning to fresh 20g of reef crystals, salinity 1.022, temp of 74, dosed with 4 ‘measures’ of Kanaplex.
Poor guy is quite off balance, and starting to spend time on its side.

Single powerhead and heater in the tank, with powerhead near surface to fractionate some air bubbles into the tank.

Will grab some bio media from the sump for the QT tank now. Should we prophylactically dose some Seachem Prime to assist with ammonia? We have some on hand.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Re-arranged some rockwork last night while waiting for the QT to be ready, moved the tang over this morning to fresh 20g of reef crystals, salinity 1.022, temp of 74, dosed with 4 ‘measures’ of Kanaplex.
Poor guy is quite off balance, and starting to spend time on its side.

Single powerhead and heater in the tank, with powerhead near surface to fractionate some air bubbles into the tank.

Will grab some bio media from the sump for the QT tank now. Should we prophylactically dose some Seachem Prime to assist with ammonia? We have some on hand.

I don’t like to rely on ammonia removers. What ammonia test do you have?
The fish being on its side is not a good sign. The bacterial infection did not appear systemic, so I’m worried that it is stressed due to the treatment tank, catching it up, etc. Keep the tank lights dim for now and move bio media over to this tank.
Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

Re-arranged some rockwork last night while waiting for the QT to be ready, moved the tang over this morning to fresh 20g of reef crystals, salinity 1.022, temp of 74, dosed with 4 ‘measures’ of Kanaplex.
Poor guy is quite off balance, and starting to spend time on its side.

Single powerhead and heater in the tank, with powerhead near surface to fractionate some air bubbles into the tank.

Will grab some bio media from the sump for the QT tank now. Should we prophylactically dose some Seachem Prime to assist with ammonia? We have some on hand.

Prime, amquel, etc are alternatives and not solutions. They lock it up but does not make it vanish in a closed system

 

[nickijon]

Just the API kit for the basics—ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH. I‘m able to do 10g water changes daily to lessen ammonia and toxins.

This morning we observed the tang had red lesion looking damage around the tailfin. No other damage on its body.

We made a good effort, but the Tang died. Was there a ton of extra stress from moving it 2 feet into the treatment tank? Treatment tank has 4” pvc hiding spaces, and has dim light spill from the display tank. Water was a mix of 15% display tank water and the rest was 12 hr fresh mixed Reef Crystals.

I haven’t found clear evidence or anecdotal posts about chromis bullying tangs, but that’s the best hunch I have at this point. Tang was eating very very well before spiraling.

I hope others learn to use a treatment tank with Kanaplex, and not try to get it to absorb into frozen food like we did.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry to see.....not sure what else could have been done of it.

Jay

 

[nickijon]

Thanks Jay. Really can use the encouragement. It was healthy as can be the first 2 weeks. Took some close ups in case it helps anybody.