Experimenting with in-tank antibiotic treatments for Brown Jelly Disease

[andrewkw]

I have been dipping a pocillipora in Ciprofloxacin the last couple of days. It has some STN/RTN that does seem to have slowed but hasn't stopped. The protozoans on the dying tissue don't seem to be effected by the dip though. I don't know if they are the cause of the STN or just eating the dying tissue. I have been using a 500 mg pill in 2 gallons of water simply because that's the size pill I have and that's how much water in a 5 gallon bucket it takes to cover the coral.

I have been rising the coral before putting it back in the tank but nothing else seems effected, both before I started dipping and after.

 

[AquaBiomics]

Great writeup!

I just had this happen to me last 2 weeks. I had a 16 head Indo Gold Torch Colony (@ close to $300/head it hurt) succumb to this out of nowhere. I didn't even buy any new corals in a while. The only thing I added were a small cinnamon clown and 2 tuxedo urchins.

I was told to perform some 10 minute dips in Furan 2 & iodine but since I didn't have any Furan 2 I used Melafix and a few drops of Lugols Iodine instead in 1/3 gallon of tank water.

I ended up only be able to save 4 heads out of the 16 head colony.

Fortunately I didn't lose any of my other euphyllia that were all in the same 500g system in multiple connected tanks.



Before:

After the BJD:

On a Side note:
I have successfully use Ciprofloxacin successfully to treat bacterial infections in Radianthus Ritteri anemones. So I wonder if the bacterial infection in anemones are of the same genus as Arcobacter?

I havent tested any anemones, but I know Cipro is widely used for those. At higher doses than I used here, it kills a pretty broad range of bacteria, so I can't speculate what causes bacterial infections in anemones. If anyone has a sick one, we can certainly test it!

Your observations about BJD seem similar to what I experienced. I also saw some variation in susceptibility. Generally from most susceptible to least, it seems to be torches - frogspawns - hammers - grapes. With some variation within each group (i.e. some hammers got it while some didnt)

--

I spotted another bit of BJD in a different tank last night so I sampled and started a course of cipro. I'll sample again at the end of the course... so we will get replication of this after all. Now to see if the same patterns show up!

 

[Pete Paschall]

Just to add to the discussion - I just completed the third round of treatment following @AquaBiomics protocols. Eli has been kind enough to provide microbiome testing for before/after treatment for the presence of the bacteria, and so far there have been no adverse effects on my tank. I will update when the results of the testing are complete.

 

[AquaBiomics]

Great to hear no adverse effects so far!

 

[taricha]

very very cool.

It also gives us a good guess at the likely physical description and lifestyle. These are rod-shaped to helical, non-spore forming, and swim in a corkscrew motion using their single flagellum. These occur in association with animals, and also free living in waste water, seawater, and other aquatic habitats.

Microscope examination of bacteria is of very little use for these questions, but the above description I found striking.

Here's my video of BJD though it was non-typical. It affected actinodiscus mushrooms and kenya tree.


This was from a few years ago. I took slices from a few of the affected type corals around the tank and put them in beakers overnight with some brown jelly from diseased coral. I put different medicines in the beakers (dosage, I dunno. Not super scientific.)
1. Control (nothing),
2. Chemiclean (a form of erythromycin),
3. E.M. Erythromycin(API), and
4. API Fin and Body Cure (Doxycycline hyclate)

All the coral slices melted in brown jelly goop within 24 hours except doxycycline. The Doxycycline beaker coral also showed a desert of almost no bacteria-like wiggles compared to the others.
see my post here for the pics/videos of what I described above.
A quick google shows doxycycline having some affect vs arcobacter, but doxy kills a bunch of stuff, so again, little scientific value on the relevant questions.


Bonus, here's a much better video of BJD from LPS coral shot by @SuncrestReef that shows the obvious ciliates but also bacterial participants in the diseased tissue.

From thread here

 

[AquaBiomics]

very very cool.


Microscope examination of bacteria is of very little use for these questions, but the above description I found striking.

Here's my video of BJD though it was non-typical. It affected actinodiscus mushrooms and kenya tree.


This was from a few years ago. I took slices from a few of the affected type corals around the tank and put them in beakers overnight with some brown jelly from diseased coral. I put different medicines in the beakers (dosage, I dunno. Not super scientific.)
1. Control (nothing),
2. Chemiclean (a form of erythromycin),
3. E.M. Erythromycin(API), and
4. API Fin and Body Cure (Doxycycline hyclate)

All the coral slices melted in brown jelly goop within 24 hours except doxycycline. The Doxycycline beaker coral also showed a desert of almost no bacteria-like wiggles compared to the others.
see my post here for the pics/videos of what I described above.
A quick google shows doxycycline having some affect vs arcobacter, but doxy kills a bunch of stuff, so again, little scientific value on the relevant questions.


Bonus, here's a much better video of BJD from LPS coral shot by @SuncrestReef that shows the obvious ciliates but also bacterial participants in the diseased tissue.

From thread here

This is so interesting, thank you!

I will confess that I feel like I have little skill at interpreting microscopy. But to my eye your bacteria are similar to the description of Arcobacter while Suncrestreefs looked more like straight rods.

We need to get some paired measurements of DNA and microscopy on the same sample

--------

On a related note, I was happy to find bjd on a grape coral in a different tank a few days ago.

I cut and sampled the diseased head and repeated the treatment.

Currently at 7 days, the other head has recovered and I see no algae or nutrient issues.

I'll update again once the new tests are done, but for now that's n=2 saying the treatment is safe at least...

 

[Pete Paschall]

Hey, @AquaBiomics - quick question... After doing 3 doses of cipro, I am still seeing some new tissue recession in one hammer and one frogspawn. I am considering doing another 3 doses of cipro. I don't want to overdose, but am trying to save these corals. What are your thoughts on additional doses after the initial 3?

PS - I sent you a PM about directions for the microbiome test. Just want to make sure I'm doing it right.

Pete

 

[Greg Gdowski]

I have to say that this was one of the more interesting articles I have read here.

Ellery and I were just talking about some of this on FB as he was going through his episode described above. I've had very similar experiences, where everything is going great and then out of the blue I'll have a breakout of BJD without having added anything to the tank. I've often blamed myself for letting my guard down in not cleaning out something or changing media in time. I'm pretty sure that it can be provoked by water parameter changes. Perhaps, the water parameter changes impact the immunity of the Euphyllia, rendering them more susceptible to infection, even at low steady-state levels of Arcobacter?

I've gotten so good at recognizing the signs that my first strategy is to frag off the good heads and isolate them from the bad heads. That has allowed me to salvage what would have been a complete loss. I'm going to have to get a small supply of Cipro. I'd love to try this. When you are hit with BJD randomly, it often feels futile. Having one weapon to try would be worth it.

Again -- very nice article. Thanks for posting.

 

[borillion]

Has anybody tried to have PCR or electrophoresis done on bacteria in the tissue samples?

 

[jwshiver]

Is there a way to order Cipro without needing a script from a vet.

 

[Cell]

Is there a way to order Cipro without needing a script from a vet.

Chewy.com

 

[AquaBiomics]

Has anybody tried to have PCR or electrophoresis done on bacteria in the tissue samples?

What question would you like to address with PCR? I did sequence the DNA from the bacteria in the tissue samples...

 

[jwshiver]

Chewy.com

They wanted a script from my vet. Seems every site I try wants a script. My vet won't do it "because of the paperwork involved"

 

[LRT]

A quick Google search pulled up a few for me. Cant remember where I got mine but there are several that sell without rx

 

[jwshiver]

I finally found a site that didn't require a script.

Lambert Vet Supply | Dog, Cat, Horse, Kennel, & Vet Supplies

 

[Borgie234]

Could you please help me out with the dosing rates, just ordered some Cipro 500mg tablets . Looking to dose roughly 190 gallons of water, assuming I should take rock displacement inconsideration

 

[borillion]

What question would you like to address with PCR? I did sequence the DNA from the bacteria in the tissue samples...

Ahh cool. Was wondering what type of bacteria it is? That was what I was hoping you had figured out. Just out of curiosity.

 

[TheCoralExchange]

Well i've had some new colonies do the same thing as well. I've decided to try it out at your recommended .125mg per litre, so in my QT 20mg went in, will repeat over 3 days and see if this stops the new ones from dying. Interesting as i've used Cipro on nems in high dosage with great success.

 

[Dr. Jim]

FWIW, I will mention what I believe to be a safe dosage for dipping SPS frags. I dipped 10 SPS frags that were in very poor condition at a concentration of 113.5 mg/L for 30 min. This is a concentration about 1000 times greater than AquaBiomics' suggested dosage of 0.125 mg/L when treating a tank. I used Enrofloxacin which is the veterinary “equivalent” to Ciprofloxacin and can be considered to have equal “antibacterial activity” (for lack of a better term…..so, 1 mg of Enro = 1 mg Cipro. (I used 0.5cc of injectable Enro 2.27% in 100 ml water). This dosage clearly had no deleterious effect on the corals however I cannot say there was any improvement but this could very likely be because the corals were not STN-ing because of a pathogenic bacteria.

Even though I didn’t see any obvious improvement with the frags, the following day was the first day in about a month where I didn’t find dead “white tips” in the morning. Although the idea that a pathogenic bacteria is the cause of my problem is not “high on my list”, I am considering treating my entire tank anyway.. About 9 months ago I had 3 fish break out with vibrio-like skin lesions (that were successfully treated) so am wondering if this bacteria is still lingering and affecting the corals....(or, a related pathogen).

Before treating my tank, I was considering sending a water sample to @AquaBiomics and am awaiting a reply from a P.M. to him to get his opinion on this (and info about sending samples) but haven’t heard back anything yet.

Also regarding "bacteria," but on the "opposite end of the spectrum", is the idea that perhaps from the enormous number of water changes I have performed over the past 9 months due to a "tin problem", perhaps I have "washed out" beneficial bacteria. Again, maybe the analysis that AquaBiomics offers might be helpful for this as well.

 

[TheCoralExchange]

FWIW, I will mention what I believe to be a safe dosage for dipping SPS frags. I dipped 10 SPS frags that were in very poor condition at a concentration of 113.5 mg/L for 30 min. This is a concentration about 1000 times greater than AquaBiomics' suggested dosage of 0.125 mg/L when treating a tank. I used Enrofloxacin which is the veterinary “equivalent” to Ciprofloxacin and can be considered to have equal “antibacterial activity” (for lack of a better term…..so, 1 mg of Enro = 1 mg Cipro. (I used 0.5cc of injectable Enro 2.27% in 100 ml water). This dosage clearly had no deleterious effect on the corals however I cannot say there was any improvement but this could very likely be because the corals were not STN-ing because of a pathogenic bacteria.

Even though I didn’t see any obvious improvement with the frags, the following day was the first day in about a month where I didn’t find dead “white tips” in the morning. Although the idea that a pathogenic bacteria is the cause of my problem is not “high on my list”, I am considering treating my entire tank anyway.. About 9 months ago I had 3 fish break out with vibrio-like skin lesions (that were successfully treated) so am wondering if this bacteria is still lingering and affecting the corals....(or, a related pathogen).

Before treating my tank, I was considering sending a water sample to @AquaBiomics and am awaiting a reply from a P.M. to him to get his opinion on this (and info about sending samples) but haven’t heard back anything yet.

Also regarding "bacteria," but on the "opposite end of the spectrum", is the idea that perhaps from the enormous number of water changes I have performed over the past 9 months due to a "tin problem", perhaps I have "washed out" beneficial bacteria. Again, maybe the analysis that AquaBiomics offers might be helpful for this as well.

I've also sent him a PM following up to try and get some water tests going. Heard back from him long time ago but nothing recently unfortunately. I'd love to know the biome of the tanks and find out how diff stuff can change the biome possibly. Cipro seems to be pretty effective with alot of stuff. Anemones, some mushrooms, gonis, and now possibly even LPS?

I'm interested to see how this dose will work in a QT tank over long term. The amount I added at his ratio was like half a grain of rice. But i'll remain patient and see how some of these poor torches look in a few days following the recipe. Hopefully it yields a good result. It's good to see someone like @AquaBiomics who has done something like this... It'd be great if it eventually led to something good for the community and the corals themselves.