Extended fishless cycle of dry rock(3-5 months). What to use to fuel bacteria?

[Dan_P]

Will be setting up a new tank, upgrading and learning from prior mistakes that I made with current tank(6 years running). It will be dry rock and bare bottom. Starting sterile and keeping up with a good quarantine regime to avoid pests issues, bare bottom for flow for SPS, and for cutting down tank maintenance by over 50% I estimate.
I'm in no hurry, and I've read all about the difficulty with starting/cycling with dry rock(marco rock) and bare bottom. I estimate I wont have everything I need and ready to fill the new tank for close to 6 months. I have the rock already though, it was my first purchase, and playing with the idea of throwing it in a trough and starting the cycle now. So it will be well established by the time I'm ready for it.

Cycle will be fishless, soon as there is fish in it I would have to take care of it almost like another tank, and I can't promise I can give 2 tanks the attention they would need. Since cycle will be very long, a few months or more, hoping to just throw it in a trough in the garage with flow and a heater and test occasionally to track it's process. Maybe throw in a bottle of microbacter7 or Dr Tim's one and only every month or so.

My questions would be:
1) Being fishless, is there any reasons to do a water change on that proposed set up if it will be set up for 3-4 months?
2) Best fuel option for bacteria. Ammonia dosing seemed superior and more precise, but apparently requires much testing and adjusting depending on results. Would the shrimp method be fine since it will be cycling for so long anyway?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

If you are short on time, don’t bother with the rocks in the trough business. Setting up nitrification in an aquarium is quick.

Could you figure out how to get the rocks covered in coralline in the next 3-4 months?

 

[brandon429]

David I had never thought of that angle

-Additional goals would be having the bacteria healthy enough that they can assist in prevention of all the other unwanted, mostly photosynthetic organisms. Algae, diatoms, cyano, etc.-


really strong idea that’s great. And to Dans idea above it surely would be fast to get em ready as current bottled technology allows and this exact same nature assessment slo mode data could easily be done in a portion of rocks sat in a five gallon bucket in the garage off to the side. It’s the worlds easiest and cheapest cycling experiment I have no idea why I haven’t ran one yet: bucket, rocks, water, April, quick test lol

 

[David Halderman]

also dont think the plan is going to circumvent annoyances other than mantis shrimps. all hardscapes sourced for the tank after cycling will come from common pool settings and the hitchers will ride in just the same. vermitids, aiptasia, green hair algae, dinos et al-all still coming. flatworms too.

This I’m not sure I understand fully. I’m not going to source anything for this new tank that is not dry. All live rock will be in the cycle I begin here shortly. Maybe add some media later if I feel the need. Corals will be removed from plug and dipped. Fish will be quarantined. I’m hoping to avoid just about everything haha.

 

[brandon429]

with that level of input control you might be able to avoid the common hitchhikers but itll be rare to attain, wemostly get the headaches to endure

most sourcing of corals and clean up crews come from systems not as carefully planned, but its possible. Here below is at least a mini model of that planned effort: howabout me also wanted strong input control and it looks like it worked pretty well for his tank check this one out along those lines you mentioned:

Build Thread - My SPS Waterbox Peninsula Mini 15

Hi all. Long time member (I think I joined right around when R2R started or took off years ago) but got out of the hobby for about 6 years and now I am back! I don't see many build threads for the PM 15 (mostly the 25) so thought I'd share my journey here. This post will be a bit behind...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Azedenkae]

So even if I did this method, there should still be a time where I reach a balance and no longer have to daily test potentially? Once I achieve a point where I dose 2ppm ammonia, and 24 hours later it’s zero, I could potentially assume that I can now do that every day, dose to fuel them up once a day until I’m ready to start the display. Testing only occasionally or before I’m actually ready to fill the tank?

Ammonia AND nitrite, but yes. Absolutely. Once it occurs then you are good to go (you don't even need to test again before stocking the tank). In fact, you don't even need to dose every day prior to stocking the tank either. Once a robust nitrifier colony has been established, they can always just chill there for a while until you can stock the tank. They don't really care if they are starved of ammonia for a few days, or even weeks. If you want to have peace of mind, can always dose like 2ppm ammonia a week just to be sure.

Just to clarify, nitrite is not toxic to marine fish at levels we normally see, but it can start to cause issues upon prolonged exposure at concentrations of say 25ppm (for ocellaris clownfish) and at 100+ppm (not sure exact point) it can be lethal. Very unlikely you'd get to 25ppm nitrite, let alone 100+ppm, but I always prefer to just make sure rather than risk it.

Yeah man regarding the sterile rock and BB, if I could have traded making my first tank’s first year harder for the next 5 years to be even more enjoyable/successful I would have.

Mmm absolutely. Right now I am loving that I am controlling absolutely everything that goes into the tank. Makes it so much easier.

I probably would eventually set up a tank with live rock again, but that'll be another type of mindset where it'd just be more of 'let everything be'. This one I want to have full control, and it is working out. So yeah, totally get ya.

 

[Garf]

Ammonia AND nitrite, but yes. Absolutely. Once it occurs then you are good to go (you don't even need to test again before stocking the tank). In fact, you don't even need to dose every day prior to stocking the tank either. Once a robust nitrifier colony has been established, they can always just chill there for a while until you can stock the tank. They don't really care if they are starved of ammonia for a few days, or even weeks. If you want to have peace of mind, can always dose like 2ppm ammonia a week just to be sure.

Just to clarify, nitrite is not toxic to marine fish at levels we normally see, but it can start to cause issues upon prolonged exposure at concentrations of say 25ppm (for ocellaris clownfish) and at 100+ppm (not sure exact point) it can be lethal. Very unlikely you'd get to 25ppm nitrite, let alone 100+ppm, but I always prefer to just make sure rather than risk it.

Mmm absolutely. Right now I am loving that I am controlling absolutely everything that goes into the tank. Makes it so much easier.

I probably would eventually set up a tank with live rock again, but that'll be another type of mindset where it'd just be more of 'let everything be'. This one I want to have full control, and it is working out. So yeah, totally get ya.

New vid from reef beef covers a few of these ideas; especially from the one hour mark;

 

[brandon429]

That’s truly funny and good so far

 

[brandon429]

As they begin to hint at the power of bottle bac the scene cuts we don’t get to see how they make posits in relation to Dr. Reefs bottle bac thread which is pronounced power from the bottle with controls to show how slow things are without the boost

they prior to the segment had reviewed input options for bacteria beyond the bottle…tank rock chunks or water transfers but seemed to settle on a scoop of detritus being the most accessible and actionable


we need that in a seneye bucket reef test. Make a bucket nearly full of dry Marco rocks heated and swirled but not cycled, input some detritus or tank wall scrapings from a running reef and then immediately put in two clownfish and a few feed pellets. If the seneye shows a rise to .01 remove the fish and clock that no-surface area inoc source as too slow to tie with what any bottle bac can do, they’d make the bucket reef workable in spec.

it might work too, worth a test. Detritus has a lot of actionable bac but is it concentrate? They gave nice insight into easy future testing we can secure to put bottle bac in the correct light as hype or truly able

 

[Dan_P]

Will be setting up a new tank, upgrading and learning from prior mistakes that I made with current tank(6 years running). It will be dry rock and bare bottom. Starting sterile and keeping up with a good quarantine regime to avoid pests issues, bare bottom for flow for SPS, and for cutting down tank maintenance by over 50% I estimate.
I'm in no hurry, and I've read all about the difficulty with starting/cycling with dry rock(marco rock) and bare bottom. I estimate I wont have everything I need and ready to fill the new tank for close to 6 months. I have the rock already though, it was my first purchase, and playing with the idea of throwing it in a trough and starting the cycle now. So it will be well established by the time I'm ready for it.

Cycle will be fishless, soon as there is fish in it I would have to take care of it almost like another tank, and I can't promise I can give 2 tanks the attention they would need. Since cycle will be very long, a few months or more, hoping to just throw it in a trough in the garage with flow and a heater and test occasionally to track it's process. Maybe throw in a bottle of microbacter7 or Dr Tim's one and only every month or so.

My questions would be:
1) Being fishless, is there any reasons to do a water change on that proposed set up if it will be set up for 3-4 months?
2) Best fuel option for bacteria. Ammonia dosing seemed superior and more precise, but apparently requires much testing and adjusting depending on results. Would the shrimp method be fine since it will be cycling for so long anyway?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

I just had an idea. I haven‘t kept up with replies though. Sorry if I’m repeating someone’s idea.

I have been experimenting with growing biofilms and it occurs to me that if your present aquarium does not have anything obnoxious growing in it, you could culture your tank’s current microbiome on your new rocks by submerging them in aquarium water, aerating, circulation, etc. You would have to replace the water with fresh aquarium water to ensure the microbiome is being fed the same stuff as the operational aquarium. To be prudent, a large water change for the new rocks every one or two weeks would be needed. You probably don’t need much water, but changing it would be important. You could still add nitrifying bacteria if you wanted.

The conjecture is when you establish and mature a biofilm on these new rocks, you will minimize or eliminate the uglies on their surfaces, even if coralline is not growing on them, i.e., no lighting is necessary.

 

[MnFish1]

Will be setting up a new tank, upgrading and learning from prior mistakes that I made with current tank(6 years running). It will be dry rock and bare bottom. Starting sterile and keeping up with a good quarantine regime to avoid pests issues, bare bottom for flow for SPS, and for cutting down tank maintenance by over 50% I estimate.
I'm in no hurry, and I've read all about the difficulty with starting/cycling with dry rock(marco rock) and bare bottom. I estimate I wont have everything I need and ready to fill the new tank for close to 6 months. I have the rock already though, it was my first purchase, and playing with the idea of throwing it in a trough and starting the cycle now. So it will be well established by the time I'm ready for it.

Cycle will be fishless, soon as there is fish in it I would have to take care of it almost like another tank, and I can't promise I can give 2 tanks the attention they would need. Since cycle will be very long, a few months or more, hoping to just throw it in a trough in the garage with flow and a heater and test occasionally to track it's process. Maybe throw in a bottle of microbacter7 or Dr Tim's one and only every month or so.

My questions would be:
1) Being fishless, is there any reasons to do a water change on that proposed set up if it will be set up for 3-4 months?

IMHO - Yes - if you're going to be feeding a tank for 3-4 months - or longer - you're going to get nitrate build-up. So - at some point - lets say when its 50 or 30 - change water. Whether you use the shrimp, the ammonia method - or just setting the tank up - with water - and waiting.

2) Best fuel option for bacteria. Ammonia dosing seemed superior and more precise, but apparently requires much testing and adjusting depending on results. Would the shrimp method be fine since it will be cycling for so long anyway?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Part of the problem here is 'What is the definition of a 'cycled tank'? Is it when fish can live in it - 1 fish? 20 fish? Is it when ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0 and Nitrate is present? etc etc - (There are multiple variations).

I think you are not going to need to do a lot of testing, etc if you're letting the tank sit - empty (except for the dry rock). You can add Dr. Tim's ammonia - and a dose of fritz 9000 - and then redose ammonia maybe every couple weeks. Testing perhaps before you're going to add ammonia.

You will want to test nitrate (as above) - and change water AS NEEDED. Bearing in mind that Nitrate and nitrite testing - depending on the method used - can cause false reading. Thats why I would merely put in ammonia - and bacteria - leave the tank unlit - and perhaps check things in a couple weeks. The good news - is that any bacteria that 'grows' - if the ammonia goes down to 0 - will go dormant - and not die (Note - I'm talking about nitrifying bacteria)

The issue with any of these methods - is that the bacteria will only grow the nitrifying bacteria) - to the point where there is no more food. So - you also need to consider adding a little fish food periodically - to maintain some Phosphate.

BTW - there are 1000 ways to do this. I cant see a lot of the other replies for some reason - I'm sure you've gotten advice

 

[MnFish1]

PS - I'm not sure you will eliminate the 'uglies' by anything except covering the rock with something else - whether its coralline algae, Large pieces of coral, other live rock, etc. If there is fresh rock, it will grow 'something' if its lit.