Extended fishless cycle of dry rock(3-5 months). What to use to fuel bacteria?

[David Halderman]

Will be setting up a new tank, upgrading and learning from prior mistakes that I made with current tank(6 years running). It will be dry rock and bare bottom. Starting sterile and keeping up with a good quarantine regime to avoid pests issues, bare bottom for flow for SPS, and for cutting down tank maintenance by over 50% I estimate.
I'm in no hurry, and I've read all about the difficulty with starting/cycling with dry rock(marco rock) and bare bottom. I estimate I wont have everything I need and ready to fill the new tank for close to 6 months. I have the rock already though, it was my first purchase, and playing with the idea of throwing it in a trough and starting the cycle now. So it will be well established by the time I'm ready for it.

Cycle will be fishless, soon as there is fish in it I would have to take care of it almost like another tank, and I can't promise I can give 2 tanks the attention they would need. Since cycle will be very long, a few months or more, hoping to just throw it in a trough in the garage with flow and a heater and test occasionally to track it's process. Maybe throw in a bottle of microbacter7 or Dr Tim's one and only every month or so.

My questions would be:
1) Being fishless, is there any reasons to do a water change on that proposed set up if it will be set up for 3-4 months?
2) Best fuel option for bacteria. Ammonia dosing seemed superior and more precise, but apparently requires much testing and adjusting depending on results. Would the shrimp method be fine since it will be cycling for so long anyway?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

 

[Azedenkae]

1. No, unless any parameters get too out of whack for even nitrifiers to grow.
2. So, the shrimp and ghostfeeding methods are actually the one that requires a lot of tinkering. Ammonia-dosing is straight forward, precisely because it is well, precise. Ammonia-dosing is also superior because you are forcing the growth of just nitrifiers, not other microorganisms.

If you need any very specific help, let me know. I just cycled a tank using marco rocks and MarinePure biomedia (because I was using quite a lot less rock than recommended), and got it to be cycled within a few days.

 

[Shirak]

What about using a chunk of live rock to seed with so you get a really diverse bacterial population instead of a few strains in a bottle? If it's sitting for 3-4 months wouldn't that eliminate any fish pests?

 

[David Halderman]

What about using a chunk of live rock to seed with so you get a really diverse bacterial population instead of a few strains in a bottle? If it's sitting for 3-4 months wouldn't that eliminate any fish pests?

It would, but I have tons of little things in there that I’m convinced are irritating the corals as well. The sps in particular. Tons of different small things looking like bristle worms, spaghetti worms(I think). I occasionally see them on the corals at night. I bought maricultured things in my first 3 years of reefing. I’ve pulled a 2 and a half foot Jet black bobbit worm out of my tank before. It’s worth it for me to eliminate all variables as possible. I’m prepared to be patient. I just want the most effective, and also not super high maintenance way, to fuel the bacteria in a fishless extended cycle system.
Seeding would work, but I just don’t want anything from the old touching the new Tank.

 

[David Halderman]

1. No, unless any parameters get too out of whack for even nitrifiers to grow.
2. So, the shrimp and ghostfeeding methods are actually the one that requires a lot of tinkering. Ammonia-dosing is straight forward, precisely because it is well, precise. Ammonia-dosing is also superior because you are forcing the growth of just nitrifiers, not other microorganisms.

If you need any very specific help, let me know. I just cycled a tank using marco rocks and MarinePure biomedia (because I was using quite a lot less rock than recommended), and got it to be cycled within a few days.

The ammonia way doesn’t require almost daily testing? If it is as simple as dosing the same amount every day I could easily just do that every time I feed the fish in my current system. I’d be all in.

 

[Azedenkae]

The ammonia way doesn’t require almost daily testing? If it is as simple as dosing the same amount every day I could easily just do that every time I feed the fish in my current system. I’d be all in.

Oh it does require daily testing, but so does every other method. Ghostfeeding or shrimp method may require testing, then serial dilution testing even if parameters are way off (which is quite common), and then potentially water changes and even more testing. So yeah, ammonia-dosing is the best.

With that said, the methodology is really, really simple with ammonia-dosing, again, more so than ghostfeeding and stuff.

like this:

Using bottled bac products can really speed things up. Like drastically. FritzZyme TurboStart 900 is the best. That was what I used to cycle my tank in 5 days or so. Bio-Spira is apparently also good.

I would not really recommend Seachem Stability or Microbacter7. They contain non-nitrifiers along with nitrifiers, but yeah is not really what you need for cycling.

Dr. Tim’s I have only seen one thread across all the forums (and Reddit) that I frequent, but in the past year or so I have seen probably a hundred threads having trouble getting it to work.

API Quick Start (Marine), Microbacter XLM, etc. may also work. But anyways yeah might as well stick to what definitely works, i.e. Bio-Spira or Fritz.

On an unrelated note, I fully support your choice of going fully dry rock. To each their own, and I personally had all manners of tanks. Sand, bare bottom. Live rock vs. dry rock. Coral-only, fish-only, etc. You have a reason for dry rock start, so go for it. ^_^

 

[elysics]

Realistically, nothing cycle related requires daily testing.

Impatience requires daily testing, when you can't stand the thought that you waited unnecessarily after your tank was ready.

In a dead tank with dead rock, you can afford all the spikes and bottom outs you want, nothing to kill by flying blind within reason

 

[chipchipbro]

this is a topic for @brandon429

 

[brandon429]

Davids setup has a rare chance to contribute new cycling data here

nearly all cycles are a rush to the start date so we are managing bottle bac and feed in order to meet a start date by the end of the week, and in that rush the hobby has only one instance documented I know of for something called the unassisted marine cycle

unassisted= can rocks simply set in water and left uncapped in any home setting both attain their own feed from environmental contamination (what does the top of a ceiling fan look like when uncleaned four months) and bacteria? A pure, unassisted, time based full cycle?

the only documented example in reefing, there isn’t even an article about the option from cycle teachers, exists on page 97 of dr reefs bottle bac study thread. MSteven1 uses api ammonia to convincingly demonstrate the phenomena- but nobody accepts proof or pattern off one incidence so that means David he if he selects has a chance to contribute to something very undocumented aside from one sole case in the hobby


it’s simple, the first rule is all cycling even fed cycles is that nobody should be dosing 2 ppm ammonia once, let alone three times, to verify a cycle. Dosed up to .5 ppm one time is plenty.

dosing to 2 ppm once or thrice is what trained buyers do who blindly follow every advice from bottle bac sellers and that advice overpowers most known test kits where they cannot reveal the true action of bacteria in a legit cycle. The tanks are actually clearing the ammonia (see any seneye cycle) but the color tube test kits can’t indicate the clearance they’re overpowered and show a false stall.

the average public cycler using api or red sea who follow the 2 ppm rule then buy more bacteria to remedy a false stall. I claim the advice is directly made into reefing procedure to produce extra revenue as the #1 reason for that invented rule.

I have one hundred pages of reef tanks linkable right now where we did not dose 2 ppm ammonia and we were able to produce unlimited number of fully cycled tanks using fractional doses.

The reef tanks can be clicked on now, a year after our assigned start date, and the life history inspected to see how controlled ammonia dosing produced much better results.

There are instances where lab techs and chemists can use api to demonstrate 2 ppm movement but the masses routinely encounter trouble with it, we eschew the practice in my cycling threads so there is no possible claim for lack of cycle because I have the most examples on file of anyone where dosing 2 ppm was not needed to produce a ready tank and it makes our testing work much better for the masses to not follow in step every whim a bottle bac salesman or peers online who relay the requirement


that being said, if David wouldn’t mind helping new cycling science it‘d be easy: set the rocks in circulated and heated water, kept topped off to general reef salinities, and let them sit there uncovered no lid (common room contaminants do the job) and then test in four months for the ability to move down .5 ppm ammonia, very simple.

then after month four where we get our critical data, dump and dose what you will

start the proofing by running the ammonia test on the holding water before the dose, keep a clear picture of the reading that’s our zero baseline pic #1

use a common online volume and % strength ammonia calculator to input ammonia load so the holding container attains .5 ppm max ammonia. The calculator gives you the dose to input, don’t just input ammonia till a tester says .5 it’ll overshoot bigtime.

Run the ammonia test just after addition of the ammonia and keep that pic #2 handy so we can see if the tester was valid…any tester that can’t indicate that small change is useless in reefing assessment and any test kit that pegs solid green or red at .5 ppm is equally useless.

*if* the tester in question is able to manage an indication slight change positive that’s valid.


wait 24 hours for pic #3 and see if it stalls, no bacteria, or moves back to pic color #1= proof of unassisted cycling.

 

[brandon429]

Based on the outcome of the test, you have your answer right there how much maintenance your rocks will need to be ready by your intended start date. If they pass assessment, how much care will be needed later on? None, unassisted cycling needs only your time not your purchase or feed.


this test here isn’t expected to move the same massive dose of ammonia a bottle bac cycle can move, so we would test accordingly with a .5 ppm load which means any common starting fish bioload will be fine and carried just the same in that dilution, among that much rock surface area. 2 ppm dosing requirement is a total sham in reef cycling and the result is the overselling of bottle bac to a massive degree. We wouldn’t use it here, or any cycle if the cycler wants a clean start date.

pairing a 2ppm movement requirement with zero nitrite presence rule and cyclers are now tricked into buying quadruple the amount of bottle bac needed for a common reef tank cycle and they’ll wait weeks past the ready date for the $9 test kit to agree on ready dates



if sellers at a reef convention were made to use those rules nobody could attend with a display reef, they’d all miss the start date for decades vs make that start date on time. 2 ppm ammonia dosing is for trained click buyers only, sellers never use that rule nor should we.

 

[Azedenkae]

Realistically, nothing cycle related requires daily testing.

Impatience requires daily testing, when you can't stand the thought that you waited unnecessarily after your tank was ready.

In a dead tank with dead rock, you can afford all the spikes and bottom outs you want, nothing to kill by flying blind within reason

No, daily testing helps you track a cycle most accurately and ensure one knows how things are progressing and can make changes if necessary. Nothing to do with impatience. It’s about if something goes wrong, there’s a way to actually pinpoint what the cause may be.

 

[elysics]

No, daily testing helps you track a cycle most accurately and ensure one knows how things are progressing and can make changes if necessary. Nothing to do with impatience. It’s about if something goes wrong, there’s a way to actually pinpoint what the cause may be.

Do you have an example of something going wrong that will still be going wrong a week/month later?

Massive overdoses from inability to read a label/recommendations excluded

 

[brandon429]

David if you wind up doing the verification and I miss your updates pls send message to let me know


heres that one instance we’ve seen below

Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

Did the online calc indicate to use one mil in the tank for your gallonage

www.reef2reef.com

before anyone goes and tries to detract from Stevens work, the point of his documentation wasn’t eliminating every possible input source of bacteria that helped him attain the clearly documented results shown (Concerns about using wet skimmers moved from other systems or pumps moved over from existing systems were reviewed as inputs for bacteria not from the home setting)


the point of Stevens post is that under any reasonable assembly attempt in a home setting, filter bac get in and self feed. The point was that nowadays trained buyers wouldn’t assume any method of unassisted cycling is possible, yet there it is. No bottle bac, no feed needed, only time and an assembly done from inside a home. he didn’t have to pay for, nor coax a cycle using standard ways we’d all use when setting up a reef is the entire point. We are trained to think if we don’t pay for something, no cycle is getting completed.

 

[Garf]

Will be setting up a new tank, upgrading and learning from prior mistakes that I made with current tank(6 years running). It will be dry rock and bare bottom. Starting sterile and keeping up with a good quarantine regime to avoid pests issues, bare bottom for flow for SPS, and for cutting down tank maintenance by over 50% I estimate.
I'm in no hurry, and I've read all about the difficulty with starting/cycling with dry rock(marco rock) and bare bottom. I estimate I wont have everything I need and ready to fill the new tank for close to 6 months. I have the rock already though, it was my first purchase, and playing with the idea of throwing it in a trough and starting the cycle now. So it will be well established by the time I'm ready for it.

Cycle will be fishless, soon as there is fish in it I would have to take care of it almost like another tank, and I can't promise I can give 2 tanks the attention they would need. Since cycle will be very long, a few months or more, hoping to just throw it in a trough in the garage with flow and a heater and test occasionally to track it's process. Maybe throw in a bottle of microbacter7 or Dr Tim's one and only every month or so.

My questions would be:
1) Being fishless, is there any reasons to do a water change on that proposed set up if it will be set up for 3-4 months?
2) Best fuel option for bacteria. Ammonia dosing seemed superior and more precise, but apparently requires much testing and adjusting depending on results. Would the shrimp method be fine since it will be cycling for so long anyway?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

As a dry rock bare bottom owner;

Problem with dry rock only, extended period cycling is the rock is available for colonisation by any little critter that just drops in, in conditions that don’t represent a lit tank, if kept in the dark. I strongly suggest you put bacteria from a running tank in there, somehow. Even then, when you light it, POOF, in tank algae scrubber. I used multiple seeding methods on my dry rock, bare bottom, took 12 months to see any progress with maturity. You will be adding corals with rock attached, I assume, at some point?

To answer your question, a pinch of fish flakes a few times a week hasn’t failed for me. Test it as often as you like, but when you put it in your tank, you’ll wanna check that all is well anyhow.

 

[brandon429]

“Nitrosomonas europaea cells starved for weeks, months or even almost a year of ammonium were able to regain their ammonia‐oxidizing activity within minutes in batch and retentostat experiments (Wilhelm et al., 1998; Tappe et al., 1999; Laanbroek & Bär‐Gilissen, 2002)”

In the book “The Isolation and Study of Nitrifying Bacteria”, W. Gibbs, 1919, he found that BB or beneficial bacteria (scientifically these are “aerobic nitrifying bacteria”) retained their potency sealed in a bottle with air and moisture in it for seven years. BB are very primitive, aerobic, low metabolism organisms. BB do not die in months or years without food. They only need to be kept wet and open to the air.




that’s a very neat snippet from here

i really like this article below on cycling, look how different these rules are compared to a Dr Tims cycle rule set

Beneficial Bacteria in the Aquarium

"Beneficial bacteria" in an aquarium filter are largely responsible for changing somewhat toxic ammonia in fish waste to innocuous nitrate.

aquariumscience.org

people who aren’t trying to sell us stuff paint a totally different picture of cycling science. Whoever wrote that article, I love him. He’s my cycling spirit fellow.

 

[brandon429]

based on that article provided, as a direct answer to this post, I'd say no help is needed to fuel bacteria and Id expect unassisted cycling proof #2 to be avail for read by april.

**I also dont think the plan is going to circumvent annoyances other than mantis shrimps. all hardscapes sourced for the tank after cycling will come from common pool settings and the hitchers will ride in just the same. vermitids, aiptasia, green hair algae, dinos et al-all still coming. flatworms too.

 

[brandon429]

that reference above isn't for marine-selected bacteria its for freshwater

so, lets see if that matters any. I bet it does not, and that merely extra time is needed for the proper selections to take place. in freshwater its 30 days/every common cycling chart in existence

and for marine, that's why we're needing these tests. nobody has a clear data set on the matter except for MSteven1 so far

 

[Azedenkae]

Do you have an example of something going wrong that will still be going wrong a week/month later?

Massive overdoses from inability to read a label/recommendations excluded

Why not accidental overdosings? That IS one VERY good reason to test daily.

There are other reasons. But before that, let’s get into what readings can show something is off. First, the ‘stuck’ reading where nitrification seems to reach a certain rate and then just never gets any faster. This is seen by being able to count the number of days from a dosing to when parameters zero out. Second, nitrification may actually seem to slow down or stop entirely.

Both then points towards problems that can be identified and solved. Test monthly? Congrats, you’d either miss the problem entirely or catch it far later than necessary. Sure, patience is great and all (not really, that was sarcasm), but ehat’s better? Not wasting time. Finding out there is an issue and solving it should, well clearly, be a good thing.

So what problems can there be? Parameters going whack (including salinity, pH, etc.) growth of the wrong type of microorganisms (initial consumption of ammonia was by non-nitrifiers rather than nitrifiers for example), not enough biomedia, and more.

I've personally experienced some, though not all of these problems. And yeah, catching it early was great. Especially important when I caught it before I actually added anything to the tank. Case in point, I had a tank whereby nitrification kept on slowing down (which again, I found out thanks to testing daily), and found that pH actually had dropped very low, like 6. No idea why to this day, but I glad I figured it out. Had I tested a month later, I would have zero idea if pH had dropped gradually over time, or if it was sudden (it was sudden, daily drops). Even testing a week later would still have caused the same question. Then it would be a matter of troubleshooting, and of course, hindsight's 20/20 but when it comes to blindly troubleshooting, one may not be able to easily figure out.

That's why tracking changes is good. Not for when it works, but for when it does not.

Like yeah, most other times my tanks cycle fine, and then all that testing is 'wasted'. But eh, when it matters, it matters.

Especially nowadays when people are having more and more diverse setups, like having minimalistic rockscape for example, which may not offer enough nitrification for a higher bioload.

Testing daily simply provides all the data one needs to troubleshoot an issue when it happens. It does not always happen, but when it does, it is godsend.

 

[David Halderman]

Oh it does require daily testing, but so does every other method. Ghostfeeding or shrimp method may require testing, then serial dilution testing even if parameters are way off (which is quite common), and then potentially water changes and even more testing. So yeah, ammonia-dosing is the best.

With that said, the methodology is really, really simple with ammonia-dosing, again, more so than ghostfeeding and stuff.

like this:

Using bottled bac products can really speed things up. Like drastically. FritzZyme TurboStart 900 is the best. That was what I used to cycle my tank in 5 days or so. Bio-Spira is apparently also good.

I would not really recommend Seachem Stability or Microbacter7. They contain non-nitrifiers along with nitrifiers, but yeah is not really what you need for cycling.

Dr. Tim’s I have only seen one thread across all the forums (and Reddit) that I frequent, but in the past year or so I have seen probably a hundred threads having trouble getting it to work.

API Quick Start (Marine), Microbacter XLM, etc. may also work. But anyways yeah might as well stick to what definitely works, i.e. Bio-Spira or Fritz.

On an unrelated note, I fully support your choice of going fully dry rock. To each their own, and I personally had all manners of tanks. Sand, bare bottom. Live rock vs. dry rock. Coral-only, fish-only, etc. You have a reason for dry rock start, so go for it. ^_^

So even if I did this method, there should still be a time where I reach a balance and no longer have to daily test potentially? Once I achieve a point where I dose 2ppm ammonia, and 24 hours later it’s zero, I could potentially assume that I can now do that every day, dose to fuel them up once a day until I’m ready to start the display. Testing only occasionally or before I’m actually ready to fill the tank?

Yeah man regarding the sterile rock and BB, if I could have traded making my first tank’s first year harder for the next 5 years to be even more enjoyable/successful I would have.

 

[David Halderman]

Davids setup has a rare chance to contribute new cycling data here

nearly all cycles are a rush to the start date so we are managing bottle bac and feed in order to meet a start date by the end of the week, and in that rush the hobby has only one instance documented I know of for something called the unassisted marine cycle

unassisted= can rocks simply set in water and left uncapped in any home setting both attain their own feed from environmental contamination (what does the top of a ceiling fan look like when uncleaned four months) and bacteria? A pure, unassisted, time based full cycle?

the only documented example in reefing, there isn’t even an article about the option from cycle teachers, exists on page 97 of dr reefs bottle bac study thread. MSteven1 uses api ammonia to convincingly demonstrate the phenomena- but nobody accepts proof or pattern off one incidence so that means David he if he selects has a chance to contribute to something very undocumented aside from one sole case in the hobby


it’s simple, the first rule is all cycling even fed cycles is that nobody should be dosing 2 ppm ammonia once, let alone three times, to verify a cycle. Dosed up to .5 ppm one time is plenty.

dosing to 2 ppm once or thrice is what trained buyers do who blindly follow every advice from bottle bac sellers and that advice overpowers most known test kits where they cannot reveal the true action of bacteria in a legit cycle. The tanks are actually clearing the ammonia (see any seneye cycle) but the color tube test kits can’t indicate the clearance they’re overpowered and show a false stall.

the average public cycler using api or red sea who follow the 2 ppm rule then buy more bacteria to remedy a false stall. I claim the advice is directly made into reefing procedure to produce extra revenue as the #1 reason for that invented rule.

I have one hundred pages of reef tanks linkable right now where we did not dose 2 ppm ammonia and we were able to produce unlimited number of fully cycled tanks using fractional doses.

The reef tanks can be clicked on now, a year after our assigned start date, and the life history inspected to see how controlled ammonia dosing produced much better results.

There are instances where lab techs and chemists can use api to demonstrate 2 ppm movement but the masses routinely encounter trouble with it, we eschew the practice in my cycling threads so there is no possible claim for lack of cycle because I have the most examples on file of anyone where dosing 2 ppm was not needed to produce a ready tank and it makes our testing work much better for the masses to not follow in step every whim a bottle bac salesman or peers online who relay the requirement


that being said, if David wouldn’t mind helping new cycling science it‘d be easy: set the rocks in circulated and heated water, kept topped off to general reef salinities, and let them sit there uncovered no lid (common room contaminants do the job) and then test in four months for the ability to move down .5 ppm ammonia, very simple.

then after month four where we get our critical data, dump and dose what you will

start the proofing by running the ammonia test on the holding water before the dose, keep a clear picture of the reading that’s our zero baseline pic #1

use a common online volume and % strength ammonia calculator to input ammonia load so the holding container attains .5 ppm max ammonia. The calculator gives you the dose to input, don’t just input ammonia till a tester says .5 it’ll overshoot bigtime.

Run the ammonia test just after addition of the ammonia and keep that pic #2 handy so we can see if the tester was valid…any tester that can’t indicate that small change is useless in reefing assessment and any test kit that pegs solid green or red at .5 ppm is equally useless.

*if* the tester in question is able to manage an indication slight change positive that’s valid.


wait 24 hours for pic #3 and see if it stalls, no bacteria, or moves back to pic color #1= proof of unassisted cycling.

I agree with you 100%. This is interesting to me because I never knew that point was even in contention. Me and my dad set up a koi pond, filled with water put dechlor and let it ride. 1 month later was ready for Koi. Never lost a fish to water quality. (Only great blue herons). It was obvious it was going through the motions though. Got real green and ugly and eventually turned very clear. No help from us. I’m sure the reef Marco rock will achieve the same and I’d be down to show it. The reason why afterwards I’d still probably add some bottle bac and maybe fuel them up a bit more is for additional goals.
Mostly I feel we here have been discussing the very minimum of what we want the bac to do for us: process the nitrogen cycle so fish don’t die. And later, so corals won’t die either. Additional goals would be having the bacteria healthy enough that they can assist in prevention of all the other unwanted, mostly photosynthetic organisms. Algae, diatoms, cyano, etc.
My personal belief seems to lean towards the idea of a very established and mature biofilm that gives them a good foot hold on any surface area in question. Strong and ready to compete when faster photo organisms come on scene. As opposed to say, “bioDIVERSITY”. If it was only a matter of diversity, it would seem to me that we should potentially see big INSTANT benefits or differences by simply buying many different bottles bac brands across the industry. Insuring you up the number of species and mixing all together. You could buy every brand botttled bac and poor it in and I don’t think it would be different than just 1. And it CERTAINLY wouldn’t achieve what 1 year old to 2 year old established rock could. You can’t get around it, There is something to be said about established rock, and what do we mean by established? We mean “A very long time”. For the example I gave above, I don’t think variety is the key. Too many speak of their tanks “maturing” and “stabilizing” over many months to years. It seems more likely to me that although we can help it or push it along, growth rates of our desired bacteria are pretty fixed, and time is the only solution.