Feel like quitting 2 years almost no growth please help sps dominate

jda

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MBP&S are nothing like acropora. Nothing. They are the weeds of SPS and easier to grow than some softies. That is likely why nobody mentioned it. You have to set anything from MBP&S aside when looking at an acro.
 

ap7x

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So yeah... by the numbers and by placement, the ones that have been growing “expectedly” are 300ish, yellow tips 400. All off to the side or even with the yellow tips, visually lower and somewhat shaded?

You said your mid is 500 par, the top-most rock work probably a bit more? Either way - all filled with frags that haven’t grown much.

Flow seems consistent with both growing and non-growing acros. Obviously water parameters great for growth and color since some things are growing so I am not sure you need to change/add any dosing.

So I’m thinking logically... lighting seems to be main difference and first step to try is dial back par (intensity easier to reduce than messing with peak schedules imo) and see how it affects the stunted frags.

Dunno if this was missed or ignored (which is fine haha) but since you are touching back on lighting.. just visually the acros that are growing for you are lower/off to the side of the rock work (or in other words, receiving less light) compared to your stunted frags. Flow doesn’t seem consistent with growing vs non-growing, so I don’t think that’s it necessarily.

Maybe you hit a perfect twilight zone of just enough light to stunt growth but not bleach/kill those frags on top? Lol but either way, that’s just the first thing that stands out for me simply by looking at the tank and what you said.
 
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Ryan Mansa

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Dunno if this was missed or ignored (which is fine haha) but since you are touching back on lighting.. just visually the acros that are growing for you are lower/off to the side of the rock work (or in other words, receiving less light) compared to your stunted frags. Flow doesn’t seem consistent with growing vs non-growing, so I don’t think that’s it necessarily.

Maybe you hit a perfect twilight zone of just enough light to stunt growth but not bleach/kill those frags on top? Lol but either way, that’s just the first thing that stands out for me simply by looking at the tank and what you said.
Sorry I missed this!!! I was overwhelmed with support yesterday and my fingers where burning up trying to respond , now that I think of it , you are very right , look where my best growers are ....NOT OUT IN THE OPEN !!! Wow you are right well I did knock a hour of the daylight spectrum let’s see how that plays out ! , good find !!! I agree with you now that I see it !
 

JCOLE

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+1 on fragging the corals. Your parameters, equipment, age of the tank, etc all seem good to me. Cutting the tips off corals is an old trick to help stimulate new growth. Every time I frag my corals they always grow 4-5 new branches from where I cut them. Just a thought. If all else fails then I would pick a couple of pieces to try this on.
 

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MBP&S are nothing like acropora. Nothing. They are the weeds of SPS and easier to grow than some softies. That is likely why nobody mentioned it. You have to set anything from MBP&S aside when looking at an acro.

Right, but I think the point was that a birdsnest should hit photo inhibition before most acropora. Is that not true?
 

ap7x

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Sorry I missed this!!! I was overwhelmed with support yesterday and my fingers where burning up trying to respond , now that I think of it , you are very right , look where my best growers are ....NOT OUT IN THE OPEN !!! Wow you are right well I did knock a hour of the daylight spectrum let’s see how that plays out ! , good find !!! I agree with you now that I see it !

Well, i'll retract that it might not be flow - maybe it also plays a part since again, looking at it visually, since they are up there closer to the gyres but again... generally I've read weird growth or just straight tissue loss due to too much flow. Think I've come across people talking about more encrusting/basing in higher flow but eventually have vertical/branching growth...

Also, what is your dkh consumption per day generally?
 

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Sorry I missed this!!! I was overwhelmed with support yesterday and my fingers where burning up trying to respond , now that I think of it , you are very right , look where my best growers are ....NOT OUT IN THE OPEN !!! Wow you are right well I did knock a hour of the daylight spectrum let’s see how that plays out ! , good find !!! I agree with you now that I see it !

But it looks like the rock on the left has a lot of stunted growth too, many of them right next to the birdsnest.
 

jda

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Right, but I think the point was that a birdsnest should hit photo inhibition before most acropora. Is that not true?

No. They truly are like completely different types of corals. IMO, there is nothing to take away from one to the other, only that if you can grow acros, then birdsnest should be no problem, but not the other way around.
 

Stoney

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No. They truly are like completely different types of corals. IMO, there is nothing to take away from one to the other, only that if you can grow acros, then birdsnest should be no problem, but not the other way around.

Fair enough, was just an assumption since they usually tolerate lower light. But it still begs the question as to why everything is encrusting so well. Is that even possible while being photo inhibited?
 

ap7x

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But it looks like the rock on the left has a lot of stunted growth too, many of them right next to the birdsnest.

Yeah, it was more of a general observation of the overall trend of the ones that are growing (the opposite would be if there were a few frags at the very top of the rockwork that were growing up/branching). From what I see... next to the slimer, some branches are popping from that one pinkish/neon green frag, orange hasn't encrusted (are those thicker branches new growth?), bonsai looking one encrusted, a few branches (is that new growth?). When were they put in compared to the rest?

And then finally... since they are different types, maybe where one type is stunted, the other thrived - but again, since ALL the ones receiving highest light seem stunted, just food for thought.
 
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Ryan Mansa

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Right, but I think the point was that a birdsnest should hit photo inhibition before most acropora. Is that not true?
That was the point I was trying to make as well , guys this is amazing everyone trying to help , I have pleased JDA this am by take a hour off full spectrum, I hope it works as well as lower flow !
 

Brew12

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Hope you don't mind my chiming in. Your lighting is probably a little high but I doubt it is too bad. I like running my lights at a peak of 5 hours with a long ramp up and down on both sides.
I worry much more about your flow. My personal belief is that we should never discuss flow from power heads in terms of tank turnover. That should be saved for flow through a sump. If there was something magical about 50X turnover, we would all hide our power heads in our sumps but it doesn't work that way.
For flow, where we should concentrate is on water velocity at each coral. We need high velocity at the coral/water boundary layer to allow nutrients in and waste out of the coral. Not so much that it strips the flesh off the coral, but it should be flowing hard.
If I had to guess, you have a lot of water colliding away from your coral and much less velocity at the coral. The randomness is good for cleaning out debris, not coral health unless it is needed to shift velocity between corals.

If you can drop food in your tank and it isn't flowing hard past every coral in your system in a matter of seconds, you likely have flow from one pump blocking flow from other pumps. This is almost guaranteed to be the case if the food spreads higher in the water column but isn't bouncing between every coral.
 
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Ryan Mansa

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Well, i'll retract that it might not be flow - maybe it also plays a part since again, looking at it visually, since they are up there closer to the gyres but again... generally I've read weird growth or just straight tissue loss due to too much flow. Think I've come across people talking about more encrusting/basing in higher flow but eventually have vertical/branching growth...

Also, what is your dkh consumption per day generally?
60ml 2 part
 
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Ryan Mansa

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Hope you don't mind my chiming in. Your lighting is probably a little high but I doubt it is too bad. I like running my lights at a peak of 5 hours with a long ramp up and down on both sides.
I worry much more about your flow. My personal belief is that we should never discuss flow from power heads in terms of tank turnover. That should be saved for flow through a sump. If there was something magical about 50X turnover, we would all hide our power heads in our sumps but it doesn't work that way.
For flow, where we should concentrate is on water velocity at each coral. We need high velocity at the coral/water boundary layer to allow nutrients in and waste out of the coral. Not so much that it strips the flesh off the coral, but it should be flowing hard.
If I had to guess, you have a lot of water colliding away from your coral and much less velocity at the coral. The randomness is good for cleaning out debris, not coral health unless it is needed to shift velocity between corals.

If you can drop food in your tank and it isn't flowing hard past every coral in your system in a matter of seconds, you likely have flow from one pump blocking flow from other pumps. This is almost guaranteed to be the case if the food spreads higher in the water column but isn't bouncing between every coral.
I thought it was all about random flow , my flow was Before the reduction , so turbulent that I clean the glass daily from some spilling out been that way for 2 years , water drips down the glass , it thought nothing of it and kept trying to increase the flow , nothing points at any coral , they are aimed at the surface then collide and come down
 
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Ryan Mansa

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Hope you don't mind my chiming in. Your lighting is probably a little high but I doubt it is too bad. I like running my lights at a peak of 5 hours with a long ramp up and down on both sides.
I worry much more about your flow. My personal belief is that we should never discuss flow from power heads in terms of tank turnover. That should be saved for flow through a sump. If there was something magical about 50X turnover, we would all hide our power heads in our sumps but it doesn't work that way.
For flow, where we should concentrate is on water velocity at each coral. We need high velocity at the coral/water boundary layer to allow nutrients in and waste out of the coral. Not so much that it strips the flesh off the coral, but it should be flowing hard.
If I had to guess, you have a lot of water colliding away from your coral and much less velocity at the coral. The randomness is good for cleaning out debris, not coral health unless it is needed to shift velocity between corals.

If you can drop food in your tank and it isn't flowing hard past every coral in your system in a matter of seconds, you likely have flow from one pump blocking flow from other pumps. This is almost guaranteed to be the case if the food spreads higher in the water column but isn't bouncing between every coral.
When I stir the sand bed the “micro particles” blow every where and it looks like every coral gets hit by it I could take videos
 

Brew12

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I thought it was all about random flow , my flow was Before the reduction , so turbulent that I clean the glass daily from some spilling out been that way for 2 years , water drips down the glass , it thought nothing of it and kept trying to increase the flow , nothing points at any coral , they are aimed at the surface then collide and come down
I think that is a very common misconception. I don't know why people feel that the coral cares if water is colliding a few inches above them. The water collides, you lose velocity, and then it goes down to the coral. There is a boundary layer of stagnate water that forms around the coral. You need velocity to reduce this boundary level and allow nutrient exchange.

It was an eye opener for me when I found a study on coral growth by some scientists working on the Great Barrier Reef. They set up a long trench like a slide. They pumped ocean water up to the top and it drained to the ocean out the bottom. All flow in one direction. Coral grew great.
 

JCOLE

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Also to touch on what @jda said "MBP&S are nothing like acropora". This is 100% true and the reason why I removed my volleyball sized birdsnest colonies, along with my montipora cap, pocillopora and stylo's. While they were nice they grew very fast and I knew they would take over the tank in no time. Compared to those, Acro's grow like Molasses. Honestly, your corals look fine and look to be encrusting like they should. My stags and torts are generally the only corals that grow upwards from the start. Everything else I have encrusts for a while before any side and upward growth.

I vote to keep doing what you're doing and give it time.
 

Brew12

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When I stir the sand bed the “micro particles” blow every where and it looks like every coral gets hit by it I could take videos
Flow is something best judged in person. Watch carefully and make sure that those particles are flowing rapidly past every coral. If not, you may need to make adjustments. I run my 187g with only 4 gyres set up as 2 pairs. Each pair spends almost 1/3 of the day off and they never go over 70% flow.
The FTS in my signature was of this system just prior to its 2 year point if I remember correctly. The tank just hit 2.5 years this month.
 

Brew12

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Also to touch on what @jda said "MBP&S are nothing like acropora". This is 100% true and the reason why I removed my volleyball sized birdsnest colonies, along with my montipora cap, pocillopora and stylo's. While they were nice they grew very fast and I knew they would take over the tank in no time. Compared to those, Acro's grow like Molasses. Honestly, your corals look fine and look to be encrusting like they should. My stags and torts are generally the only corals that grow upwards from the start. Everything else I have encrusts for a while before any side and upward growth.

I vote to keep doing what you're doing and give it time.
Have to agree with this, too. Birdsnests and monti's are nice for a new tank but become a problem when they take off. I'm regretting putting them in my tank. It's a constant battle to keep them from growing over the acro's.
 
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Ryan Mansa

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All I can say at this juncture is I have cut my flow in half literally , and lowered my lighting some to please the masses , I am very curious to get home see the condition of the tank , and do a alk check , I wonder if I had a dkh drop with the changes that might show me if it’s going well or not
 

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