Fiest tank - what do you think of these specs?

[Crustaceon]

If you’re going for low noise, 1” drains even on a beananimal setup isn’t going to cut it and is massive overkill flow capability-wise for a 40 breeder. You want your primary drain to run full-siphon and if you go 1” or even 3/4” on the primary drain, it will have to be throttled down so much with a ball valve that it will defeat the point of choosing those sizes. A restriction is a restriction. Not only that, both primary and secondary drains will have trouble clearing the air from the line below the ball valve which will make noise and cause some instability in flow in the primary after shutting of the return pump for feeding. For reference, I ran a dead-silent beananimal on a 100g with a 1/2” primary, a 3/4” secondary and a 1” emergency drain. Going with smaller diameter tubing on the secondary drain made a noticeable difference as well. The less air space in the lines, the less noise. The ball valve on the 1/2” drain was set half way open and was easily able to keep up with around 400gph being supplied to the tank. It also fully cleared itself of air and went full siphon within five seconds of restarting the return pump. I tested the drain setup with a 1000gph pump for safety’s sake and I never got the water level in the overflow to rise with my valves full-open.

 

[Jasper05]

If your tank needs 125 watts of power on average to stay the temperature you want across the whole year, you typically put in a 150w heater, and it turns on and off at different pace depending on external temperature.

If it fails on a 60 degree day where your tank needs 125w to maintain, you've got 25w of extra heating capacity raising your temperature.

If, instead, you run two 100w heaters for 'redundancy' and one fails, you don't notice - because it just keeps providing 100w, and the second one picks up that extra 25w - so you never notice it because there's no deviation in temperature.

And then a year later, the second one fails - and now you've got 200w of heating capacity running full steam, and 75w above equilibrium - which means the temp is going to rise 3 times as fast.


Now, 2x75w heaters seems a bit better - nowhere near the same runaway capacity - and a little safety in case one of them fails off - but it basically puts you in the same position as the single 150w - because heaters almost never fail off.


EDIT: I'm saying additional heaters don't get you anything. A controller is more reliable (because they're actually monitoring temperature, not a cheap thermocouple) . A controller and a monitor is best - but not a huge amount better than a controller. Don't rely on heater thermostats unless you have to.

Ok thanks for the clarity! My intent was to get the inkbird controllers. Maybe that's why I was confused as well.

 

[Jaebster]

I'm not familiar with that overflow but I just looked it up and see that it handles up to 1500 gph. Your return pump (varios-2) pumps 792 gph at 0' head height. Your pump needs to pump about 4'-5" depending on stand height and outlet of your return. Also bends in tubing will further reduce GPH. If I were you, I'd go with a Varios-4 and tune it down to the flow you need. The Varios-2 might need to pump at 100% power for the flow you want to achieve. But the main reason I recommend the Varios 4 is do that you can later add a media reactor (i.e. carbon/GFO) plumbed between the pump and return which would further decrease flow output.

 

[Jasper05]

If you’re going for low noise, 1” drains even on a beananimal setup isn’t going to cut it and is massive overkill flow capability-wise for a 40 breeder. You want your primary drain to run full-siphon and if you go 1” or even 3/4” on the primary drain, it will have to be throttled down so much with a ball valve that it will defeat the point of choosing those sizes. A restriction is a restriction. Not only that, both primary and secondary drains will have trouble clearing the air from the line below the ball valve which will make noise and cause some instability in flow in the primary after shutting of the return pump for feeding. For reference, I ran a dead-silent beananimal on a 100g with a 1/2” primary, a 3/4” secondary and a 1” emergency drain. Going with smaller diameter tubing on the secondary drain made a noticeable difference as well. The less air space in the lines, the less noise. The ball valve on the 1/2” drain was set half way open and was easily able to keep up with around 400gph being supplied to the tank. It also fully cleared itself of air and went full siphon within five seconds of restarting the return pump. I tested the drain setup with a 1000gph pump for safety’s sake and I never got the water level in the overflow to rise with my valves full-open.

I always chalked it up as 1 inch drains were the de facto standard. I do realize it is overkill though. Is there a external overflow out there that has less than 1 inch drains for a bean animal set up? Also would a gate valve instead of a ball valve make any difference?

 

[Crustaceon]

I’d say anything over 200gph of flow going to the to the display is overkill and isn’t giving you anything beneficial, just noise. 5x turnover through the sump is plenty.

 

[Jasper05]

I'm not familiar with that overflow but I just looked it up and see that it handles up to 1500 gph. Your return pump (varios-2) pumps 792 gph at 0' head height. Your pump needs to pump about 4'-5" depending on stand height and outlet of your return. Also bends in tubing will further reduce GPH. If I were you, I'd go with a Varios-4 and tune it down to the flow you need. The Varios-2 might need to pump at 100% power for the flow you want to achieve. But the main reason I recommend the Varios 4 is do that you can later add a media reactor (i.e. carbon/GFO) plumbed between the pump and return which would further decrease flow output.

My intent was not to have 1500 gph flow. I would use a gate valve to lessen the flow. Even the Fiji cube mentioned above is 1200 gph flow, so I am not sure what to do. I don't know a lot about flow. Are you saying that the overflow gph should not exceed the max gph of the return pump? What would be "proper" flow for a 40 breeder?

 

[Crustaceon]

I always chalked it up as 1 inch drains were the de facto standard. I do realize it is overkill though. Is there a external overflow out there that has less than 1 inch drains for a bean animal set up? Also would a gate valve instead of a ball valve make any difference?

1” is the standard size. The good news is you can get slip-in pvc reducers at pretty much any hardware store for cheap. Also, the valve design isn’t going to make much of a difference. It’s really the internal volume of the pipe trapping air that’s causing the noise. This was before I swapped the secondary for 3/4”. Note how I’m testing it with the primary closed. The secondary is handling everything and it’s not even under siphon. The top of that stand pipe has a 1/4” drilled in it for airline tubing. I ended up not even using it.

 

[Jaebster]

My intent was not to have 1500 gph flow. I would use a gate valve to lessen the flow. Even the Fiji cube mentioned above is 1200 gph flow, so I am not sure what to do. I don't know a lot about flow. Are you saying that the overflow gph should not exceed the max gph of the return pump? What would be "proper" flow for a 40 breeder?

Yes... definitely 1500gph for a 40gallon is waaaaay too much flow. I was thinking you would push your flow at around 350 to 400gph. The varios 2 is rated at 792 at 0 feet head height. Ultimately your pump will need to overcome the height of the return back in to tank. If you wanted you add other things on to the return line like a carbon reactor, you may not achieve the total flow you want with the Varios 2. Hopefully someone that actually uses a Varios 2 can chime in regarding true GPH flow.

 

[Jasper05]

I’d say anything over 200gph of flow going to the to the display is overkill and isn’t giving you anything beneficial, just noise. 5x turnover through the sump is plenty.

Is it 5x total volume or DT volume? I've been thinking about the other things you have said. Another overflow I was considering was the 800 gph modular marine overflow which is a bean animal setup with half inch drains. I had a conversation a while back with someone who thought it wasnt truly 800 gph. He had the valve fully open and could barely keep up with a small step pump. Different from your experience and the half inch drain, but of course there can be other factors at play. He recommended getting the overflow with customized 3/4 drains, which may be an option for me.

 

[Jasper05]

Yes... definitely 1500gph for a 40gallon is waaaaay too much flow. I was thinking you would push your flow at around 350 to 400gph. The varios 2 is rated at 792 at 0 feet head height. Ultimately your pump will need to overcome the height of the return back in to tank. If you wanted you add other things on to the return line like a carbon reactor, you may not achieve the total flow you want with the Varios 2. Hopefully someone that actually uses a Varios 2 can chime in regarding true GPH flow.

After going back to google, yeah it seems like I definitely wouldnt need more than 350 flowing though. I'll be pumping water about 4 ft. I found a head loss chart and it looks like at that beight it would output around 450-475. I am going to try to plumb as direct as possible but how much more headloss does a bend in the pipe cause?

I managed to find someone who ran a varios 2 on a 40 breeder. Without knowing all the specs, he said he ran it at 30% and it was more than enough flow. If I ran it for 325 flow, that wpuld be about 70% capacity I am guessing. At what capacity do dc pumps usually run at?

 

[Jaebster]

After going back to google, yeah it seems like I definitely wouldnt need more than 350 flowing though. I'll be pumping water about 4 ft. I found a head loss chart and it looks like at that beight it would output around 450-475. I am going to try to plumb as direct as possible but how much more headloss does a bend in the pipe cause?

I managed to find someone who ran a varios 2 on a 40 breeder. Without knowing all the specs, he said he ran it at 30% and it was more than enough flow. If I ran it for 325 flow, that wpuld be about 70% capacity I am guessing. At what capacity do dc pumps usually run at?

That sound good. There is no particular capacity that dc pumps are run at. My concern was that if you were to add other equipment later needing flow and wanted to plumb it to the return so that you maintain a single pump, then the varios 2 may ha e been too weak. Sounds like the varios will work if it's running at 70% without any other equipment attached to it.

 

[gabrieltackitt]

After going back to google, yeah it seems like I definitely wouldnt need more than 350 flowing though. I'll be pumping water about 4 ft. I found a head loss chart and it looks like at that beight it would output around 450-475. I am going to try to plumb as direct as possible but how much more headloss does a bend in the pipe cause?

I managed to find someone who ran a varios 2 on a 40 breeder. Without knowing all the specs, he said he ran it at 30% and it was more than enough flow. If I ran it for 325 flow, that wpuld be about 70% capacity I am guessing. At what capacity do dc pumps usually run at?

From my understanding head height can “generally” be calculated using somewhat simple math.
In 1” PVC
1 foot vertically = 1 foot of loss
1 90 degree angle = 1 foot of loss
10 feet horizontally = 1 foot of loss

so if you can calculate the route your plumbing is taking then you should be able to find out the approximate amount of loss in your return plumbing.

Keep in mind that this is approximate math and in no way a guarantee but should give you a starting point

 

[Jasper05]

That sound good. There is no particular capacity that dc pumps are run at. My concern was that if you were to add other equipment later needing flow and wanted to plumb it to the return so that you maintain a single pump, then the varios 2 may ha e been too weak. Sounds like the varios will work if it's running at 70% without any other equipment attached to it.

Actually I think my math is off. You want to set the pump at 450 gph, factoring in the theoretical head loss, that brings you to about 325 gph. So runnning the pump at 450 is about 56%. Do I make sense?

Since I am new at this and I want to keep it simple I really dont want to add anything if I dont have to. Worst case scenario can I add another pump?

 

[Crustaceon]

Is it 5x total volume or DT volume? I've been thinking about the other things you have said. Another overflow I was considering was the 800 gph modular marine overflow which is a bean animal setup with half inch drains. I had a conversation a while back with someone who thought it wasnt truly 800 gph. He had the valve fully open and could barely keep up with a small step pump. Different from your experience and the half inch drain, but of course there can be other factors at play. He recommended getting the overflow with customized 3/4 drains, which may be an option for me.

The 5x would be display tank volume. As for the box, flow is always going to increase once a full siphon is established. If the drain line is too large, water will adhere to the walls but will leave a path for air to reach the sump, preventing a siphon from being created. It may sound weird, but maximum flow isn’t always realized by opening a valve all the way and I’ll bet if that person had crack the ball valve only half way, it would’ve cleared the line of air after a minute or so and started massively outcompeting the flow of the return pump. IMO most beanimals are done wrong. In principal, they rely on the primary drain to handle most of the flow and then a secondary drain picks up the slack. What’s being missed is that siphon flow is much greater than gravity flow. What you’ll typically see are people who set them up with 1” or 3/4” pipe and close the primary ball valve 3/4 of the way or more only to still have noise. That’s because the pipe volume isn’t being filled after the ball valves and air is getting trapped. Now this can be resolved by using a return pump with more gph, but this will increase turnover through the sump and noise level across the board. Not only that, it’s not any safer because the nearly closed ball valve is massive restriction that’s less likely to allow debris to pass. But with a smaller diameter pipe, the ball valve can be opened more, which increases the velocity of the water through the pipe, which is then able to push the air out of the pipe, which in turn decreases noise. Also, if you look at a nearly closed ball valve, it forms a narrow crescent shape that becomes oval in shape the more you open it. The closer to circular, the less likely stuff will get stuck. As for the secondary drain, to reduce noise, you want as little flow going through it as possible. Just enough to stabilize the overall return flow to the sump. This should all be controlled by the primary drain ball valve and if set up properly, the secondary drain ball valve should do little more than reduce the echo of splashing water below the ball valve.

 

[Jasper05]

The 5x would be display tank volume. As for the box, flow is always going to increase once a full siphon is established. If the drain line is too large, water will adhere to the walls but will leave a path for air to reach the sump, preventing a siphon from being created. It may sound weird, but maximum flow isn’t always realized by opening a valve all the way and I’ll bet if that person had crack the ball valve only half way, it would’ve cleared the line of air after a minute or so and started massively outcompeting the flow of the return pump. IMO most beanimals are done wrong. In principal, they rely on the primary drain to handle most of the flow and then a secondary drain picks up the slack. What’s being missed is that siphon flow is much greater than gravity flow. What you’ll typically see are people who set them up with 1” or 3/4” pipe and close the primary ball valve 3/4 of the way or more only to still have noise. That’s because the pipe volume isn’t being filled after the ball valves and air is getting trapped. Now this can be resolved by using a return pump with more gph, but this will increase turnover through the sump and noise level across the board. Not only that, it’s not any safer because the nearly closed ball valve is massive restriction that’s less likely to allow debris to pass. But with a smaller diameter pipe, the ball valve can be opened more, which increases the velocity of the water through the pipe, which is then able to push the air out of the pipe, which in turn decreases noise. Also, if you look at a nearly closed ball valve, it forms a narrow crescent shape that becomes oval in shape the more you open it. The closer to circular, the less likely stuff will get stuck. As for the secondary drain, to reduce noise, you want as little flow going through it as possible. Just enough to stabilize the overall return flow to the sump. This should all be controlled by the primary drain ball valve and if set up properly, the secondary drain ball valve should do little more than reduce the echo of splashing water below the ball valve.

I appreciate the very thorough response. I understand your point. With all this being said, like the return, do we have to account for friction? So say I went with the 800 gph, if I had some elbows in there, the flow would be less than 800 correct? In your setup, were there any bends in the pipe?

 

[Crustaceon]

I appreciate the very thorough response. I understand your point. With all this being said, like the return, do we have to account for friction? So say I went with the 800 gph, if I had some elbows in there, the flow would be less than 800 correct? In your setup, were there any bends in the pipe?

My drains had two 90 degree elbows each. Also, I ran a waveline dc pump rated at 650gph on that tank. The return line had several elbows as well and I estimated the flow into the tank to be around 400gph. This was with the pump running at 75% and pushing water up about 5’. I think you’re going to need way less flow than you’re expecting which is a good thing with a dc pump since you can dial it down.

 

[Jasper05]

Anyone know anything about the octopulse 2? Would I need 1 or 2? The wave engine with the upcoming hydros controller intrigues me.