Fine to dead in less than 24 hours. What happened?

cybrook1421 · Jul 1, 2022

Hello. My cardinalfish just died today with all symptoms occurring in less than 24 hours. I have two clowns and one cardinal fish. These fish have been with be for two months at this point (we had a weird start). Sorry in advance for the novel, just wanted whoever was kind enough to help all the information.

I guess what I am just looking for here is some advice or thoughts on how I handled it, what was really wrong and what I could do better. I absolutely HATE losing fish because of me missing something or not paying as much attention as I should have. I am devastated that we got this far (through observed QT, then in the DT for 3 days, then back to QT for brook, then copper to QT properly and now this) and I lost him. I am determined to get better and not let it happen again.

Timeline before:

Last Saturday set up 10gal and 3-4x dosed with bio-spira. 10gal had heater, sponge filter, a media bag of matrix and a PVC pipe. Not cycled with DT media because DT was going fallow. No ammonia alert. No medications.
Finished metro and copper QT on Monday (I did this with copper power at 2.3-2.4ppm for 14 days). Was in a 20gal cycled with DT media from before fish infected the DT. Should be clean of brook, ich and velvet from this.
Moved to 10gal on Tuesday. Put in some more bio-spira.
Fed as normal, if not probably a little heavily (yes I realize this was stupid considering the non-cycled tank). They were eating fine. Fed 3-4 times a day alternating between LRS fish frenzy tiny bit cut up into little pieces and TDO pellets. Highest fed day was yesterday at 5 times since they were eating it. Some food was always dropping to the bottom of the tank.
No water changes since Tuesday when they were moved into the 10gal

Symptoms:

Lack of appetite this morning around 8am. Was fine last night. Maybe ate 1-2 pieces this morning but usually eats way more.
Lethargy. First was just a little slower around 10am. Then husband noticed fish laying on the bottom of the tank upright at 12pm and then eventually on its side by the time I got home around 12:30.
Very labored breathing. Heavy breaths at first then turned into quicker breaths near the end. (here is a link to video that my husband took at 12pm today)
NO red gills (or at least I didn't see any red but it was hard because of the black and grey coloring)

At that point in the day, I suspect it could be ammonia poisoning because of the un-cycled tank and the feeding. Plus the labored breathing and lethargy that online research said could be from ammonia poisoning. I dosed prime before I thought to measure ammonia so I don't actually know how much was in there. Clownfish seem fine if not a little lack of appetite for 50% of feedings so I am not sure. One feeding they will eat plenty and the next nothing at all. Clowns had no lethargy or labored breathing from what I can tell.

What I did when I noticed symptoms (in order):

Dose Prime (1.5x recommended dose)
Water Change about 40% including vacuuming up the food at the bottom of the tank.
Went out and bought methylene blue after research
Did a bath in bucket for methylene blue at 1.5mL for 1.5 gallons per Humblefish recommendation (don't care if you agree with him or not, he is the only one that had something for ammonia burns). Was heated and aerated with airstone the entire bath. Fish was in there for 27 minutes.
While it was in the bath I did another about 40% water change and dosed Stability and Stress Guard.
Put back in tank and left to see if it would recover. It did not really show any signs of improvement.
Died around 5pm.

I sanitized everything from the old 20gal QT this morning before all this happened and will be moving the clowns and filter media back to it tomorrow. I have not treated for any parasites, but I will if you suggest I need to. I will keep a close eye on the clowns for similar symptoms. I will lower the feedings to 2 per day and up the water changes.

vetteguy53081 · Jul 1, 2022

cybrook1421 said:
Hello. My cardinalfish just died today with all symptoms occurring in less than 24 hours. I have two clowns and one cardinal fish. These fish have been with be for two months at this point (we had a weird start). Sorry in advance for the novel, just wanted whoever was kind enough to help all the information.

I guess what I am just looking for here is some advice or thoughts on how I handled it, what was really wrong and what I could do better. I absolutely HATE losing fish because of me missing something or not paying as much attention as I should have. I am devastated that we got this far (through observed QT, then in the DT for 3 days, then back to QT for brook, then copper to QT properly and now this) and I lost him. I am determined to get better and not let it happen again.

Timeline before:

Last Saturday set up 10gal and 3-4x dosed with bio-spira. 10gal had heater, sponge filter, a media bag of matrix and a PVC pipe. Not cycled with DT media because DT was going fallow. No ammonia alert. No medications.

Finished metro and copper QT on Monday (I did this with copper power at 2.3-2.4ppm for 14 days). Was in a 20gal cycled with DT media from before fish infected the DT. Should be clean of brook, ich and velvet from this.

Moved to 10gal on Tuesday. Put in some more bio-spira.

Fed as normal, if not probably a little heavily (yes I realize this was stupid considering the non-cycled tank). They were eating fine. Fed 3-4 times a day alternating between LRS fish frenzy tiny bit cut up into little pieces and TDO pellets. Highest fed day was yesterday at 5 times since they were eating it. Some food was always dropping to the bottom of the tank.

No water changes since Tuesday when they were moved into the 10gal

Symptoms:

Lack of appetite this morning around 8am. Was fine last night. Maybe ate 1-2 pieces this morning but usually eats way more.

Lethargy. First was just a little slower around 10am. Then husband noticed fish laying on the bottom of the tank upright at 12pm and then eventually on its side by the time I got home around 12:30.

Very labored breathing. Heavy breaths at first then turned into quicker breaths near the end. (here is a link to video that my husband took at 12pm today)

NO red gills (or at least I didn't see any red but it was hard because of the black and grey coloring)

At that point in the day, I suspect it could be ammonia poisoning because of the un-cycled tank and the feeding. Plus the labored breathing and lethargy that online research said could be from ammonia poisoning. I dosed prime before I thought to measure ammonia so I don't actually know how much was in there. Clownfish seem fine if not a little lack of appetite for 50% of feedings so I am not sure. One feeding they will eat plenty and the next nothing at all. Clowns had no lethargy or labored breathing from what I can tell.

What I did when I noticed symptoms (in order):

Dose Prime (1.5x recommended dose)

Water Change about 40% including vacuuming up the food at the bottom of the tank.

Went out and bought methylene blue after research

Did a bath in bucket for methylene blue at 1.5mL for 1.5 gallons per Humblefish recommendation (don't care if you agree with him or not, he is the only one that had something for ammonia burns). Was heated and aerated with airstone the entire bath. Fish was in there for 27 minutes.

While it was in the bath I did another about 40% water change and dosed Stability and Stress Guard.

Put back in tank and left to see if it would recover. It did not really show any signs of improvement.

Died around 5pm.

I sanitized everything from the old 20gal QT this morning before all this happened and will be moving the clowns and filter media back to it tomorrow. I have not treated for any parasites, but I will if you suggest I need to. I will keep a close eye on the clowns for similar symptoms. I will lower the feedings to 2 per day and up the water changes.

Ammonia spike is a suspect and did you start a similar thread?

Tamberav · Jul 1, 2022

I had ammonia problems doing tank transfer method and feeding LRS.... it is just way to messy and has tons of small particles you can never hope to siphon out... and that was only feeding once a day. I switched to once a day mysis and had no more issues. I love LRS for DT but never again in uncycled or barley cycled tanks.

I think it is very possible you fed way too much to a new QT tank.

cybrook1421 · Jul 2, 2022

@vetteguy53081 Not sure what you mean by starting a similar thread....

@Tamberav Ok, I will stop using LRS in the QT. I didn't think it could be so bad.

I woke up this morning to one of the clowns having white stringy poop. This is the clown that has been eating slightly less and is acting slower. Could this have been intestinal parasites the whole time and the QT tank change just stressed them out?

I am still going to move the clowns to the 20gal to give them cleaner water, but than after that what should I do? Part of the problem is we are also going out of town on Friday and will only have some here every other day to take care of the animals. Would a food soak with general cure still be ok?

cybrook1421 · Jul 2, 2022

@vetteguy53081 @Tamberav Here are some pictures and a video of the clowns right now. Also, are they breathing really fast? or is this normal clown breathing?
Video

MnFish1 · Jul 2, 2022

cybrook1421 said:
@vetteguy53081 Not sure what you mean by starting a similar thread....

@Tamberav Ok, I will stop using LRS in the QT. I didn't think it could be so bad.

I woke up this morning to one of the clowns having white stringy poop. This is the clown that has been eating slightly less and is acting slower. Could this have been intestinal parasites the whole time and the QT tank change just stressed them out?

I am still going to move the clowns to the 20gal to give them cleaner water, but than after that what should I do? Part of the problem is we are also going out of town on Friday and will only have some here every other day to take care of the animals. Would a food soak with general cure still be ok?

1. Your 14 days of Copper was a little 'short' according to the current recommendations.
2. Without knowing an ammonia measurement its impossible to say - BUT - prime will not 'increase' ammonia, instead - it will just keep measuring it - so theoretically you can measure your ammonia
3. In theory, you did not treat with Prazipro - so that is another recommended protocol that may have helped during your QT procedure.
4. Did you have enough oxygenation in your QT tank?
5. Why are you leaving your DT 'fallow' - was there a disease in there?
6. Can you send pictures of the clowns? The white stringy poop can be any number of things - the fact that the fish might have symptoms - may suggest an intestinal issue.
7. With clowns - Brooklynella is always a concern.
8. I would recheck all of your parameters.

EDIT - I just saw your picture (you posted it while I was writing). To me the mucus seems thick - consistent with Brooklynella. The rest of the symptoms do not. Mucus thickness can also be caused by ammonia.

MnFish1 · Jul 2, 2022

cybrook1421 said:
I guess what I am just looking for here is some advice or thoughts on how I handled it, what was really wrong and what I could do better.

PS - welcome to the site - and I hope my comments above did not come across as being critical or scolding - I was merely trying to answer your question directly

cybrook1421 · Jul 2, 2022

@MnFish1 Hello! Thanks for your reply.

1. I followed Hublefish's (yes I know it is debated) guidelines of 14 days of copper and then transfer to a completely clean and new QT. This is what I did. I kept copper above 2.1 the entire time (only dropped to 2.1 for one day)
2. Hmm, I heard the prime will mess up any ammonia tests. All I have is the API one.
3. Yes, I skipped Prazi because there was no indication of external parasites.
4. I thought so. I had a strong sponge filter that is constantly breaking the surface with large bubbles.
5. Yes. I did observational QT for about 3-4 weeks at first then put the clowns and cardinal in my DT. 3 days later the darker clown started showing symptoms of Brook. Took all three out and treated for Brook. Then decided to just "start over" and do it right. I am leaving the DT fallow at 81 degrees to do Brook, Ich and Velvet just in case. Then QTing them properly. I did metro and copper first.
6. I did post some pictures a few minutes ago earlier in the thread.
7. Already should be dealt with.

MnFish1 · Jul 2, 2022

cybrook1421 said:
@MnFish1 Hello! Thanks for your reply.

1. I followed Hublefish's (yes I know it is debated) guidelines of 14 days of copper and then transfer to a completely clean and new QT. This is what I did. I kept copper above 2.1 the entire time (only dropped to 2.1 for one day)
2. Hmm, I heard the prime will mess up any ammonia tests. All I have is the API one.
3. Yes, I skipped Prazi because there was no indication of external parasites.
4. I thought so. I had a strong sponge filter that is constantly breaking the surface with large bubbles.
5. Yes. I did observational QT for about 3-4 weeks at first then put the clowns and cardinal in my DT. 3 days later the darker clown started showing symptoms of Brook. Took all three out and treated for Brook. Then decided to just "start over" and do it right. I am leaving the DT fallow at 81 degrees to do Brook, Ich and Velvet just in case. Then QTing them properly. I did metro and copper first.
6. I did post some pictures a few minutes ago earlier in the thread.
7. Already should be dealt with.

Thanks for the detailed answers!!!! (and pictures). Though it seems 'odd' - many people are quite convinced that levels of 2.5 or so (depending on the brand) are required - and if they drop - the copper QT timeline needs to start over.

Second - There are numerous people who do 14 days of copper - then again there are numerous people who do no copper at all - and are successful. I only mentioned it because you asked for potential 'issues' and IMHO 21 or 30 days offers more of a therapeutic window.

Third - I would not recommend Metronidazole for internal parasites (or external parasites - except protozoans). I would also not necessarily use them together.

cybrook1421 · Jul 2, 2022

@MnFish1
Thanks for the reply, info and suggestions. What do you suggest I do then? Move them back to the clean 20gal and then just wait and see? The 20gal goes have better oxygenation and cleaner water. Should I go ahead and treat for intestinal parasites with GC? Or should I treat them a different way?

MnFish1 · Jul 2, 2022

cybrook1421 said:
@MnFish1
Thanks for the reply, info and suggestions. What do you suggest I do then? Move them back to the clean 20gal and then just wait and see? The 20gal goes have better oxygenation and cleaner water. Should I go ahead and treat for intestinal parasites with GC? Or should I treat them a different way?

I would consider (since you said you already treated for brooklynella) - Put them in the larger tank, get a Seachem ammonia alert to monitor for free ammonia, consider repeating the whole QT process with copper for 30 days - and then follow up with Prazipro as directed.

if you want to just use General cure - (which contains metronidazole and praziquantel) - and skip copper that would be your choice.

vetteguy53081 · Jul 2, 2022

I have a hard time getting clear images on my phone but issue seems like brooklynella and not parasitical which copper will have little effect
Formalin based medication such as quick cure or ruby rally pro will be the best treatment and cannot be mixed with copper
Some signs of brooklynella are loss of appetite, rapid breathing, lethargic behavior, dull coloration and pouting in a corner

cybrook1421 · Jul 2, 2022

@vetteguy53081 I have already diagnosed and treated for Brook exactly as you described about a month ago. The fish look nothing like they did last time. What signs are leading you to this? The water is a little cloudy so it doesn't quite look like it does in the pictures.

vetteguy53081 · Jul 2, 2022

cybrook1421 said:
@vetteguy53081 I have already diagnosed and treated for Brook exactly as you described about a month ago. The fish look nothing like they did last time. What signs are leading you to this? The water is a little cloudy so it doesn't quite look like it does in the pictures.

Fish looks milky unless it’s my phone
Can you provide clearer side view pics?

cybrook1421 · Jul 3, 2022

Here is a video from a few minutes ago. Still has not eaten since Friday morning. Have tried TDO pellets that they have liked in the past as well as mysis with garlic guard.

Do you really think they have brook again even though I have not introduced anything since the first time?

Maybe a little milky on the backbone area, but not like the pictures for brook that are shown.

Also, the video was taken with no flow. If you need some more pictures I can try again.