Fish Died

[T-MIKE]

Hi,

Can someone tell me what I did wrong? The tank has been cycled for over a year and I had other fish in it before I put the new fish in, just one small Neon Blue Goby at the moment. I'm using it as my QT tank.

I got a Coral Beauty, 3x Yellowstriped Cardinalfish, and a 2x Yellowhead Jawfish. They have been doing fine while using Paraguard at 2.5ml per day for 9 or 10 days. On the 9th day, I noticed the Coral Beauty was breathing rapidly so I added some Zeolite(which now I found out doesn't work in saltwater) because it looks like I might have had 1ppm of total ammonia but the API test kit is hard to tell sometimes. I waited a few hours and saw that it wasn't doing anything so I changed 20% of the water and added 1ml of Paraguard, about 10 hours had passed since I added the full 2.5ml dose. The next morning they were still alive so I added the full 2.5ml dose and about 3 hours later they started dropping one by one on the sandbed. I was not home at the time but I had a webcam on the tank.

During this time, I also added 5ml of bacterial in a bottle on the 2nd day and the 9th day and fed them twice a day, they were eating well. One Jawfish jumped out on the 2nd day and died. When the Coral Beauty started breathing fast, all the other fish were fine. The Yellowhead Jawfish and the Neon Blue Goby are still alive and do not appear to have any symptoms.

Paraguard:

Seachem - ParaGuard

www.seachem.com

 

[javisaman]

What is the size of the tank? I think you might have added too many fish too quickly. While the tank might have been "cycled" for a year, it may not have had the bacterial population necessary to account for all of the new fish.

 

[Cerberusfish]

I agree with javisaman, maybe too many fish at once. Bacteria takes time to grow and handle new busloads. Do you drop acclimate them into the quarantine tank? And do you try to change the salinity in it to match where you're getting them from? Also towards the end it may have been just a little too much changing for them. With medication, several stressed fish, potential ammonia, and then a water change of even just %20 could have been enough of a shift to cause fatalities.

 

[Zionas]

Your tank is far too young for all those fish together at once.

x3 Orange Striped Cardinals

x1 Coral Beauty Angelfish

x2 Yellow Head Jawfish


The Coral Beauty is by far the biggest source of bioload in a very young tank but even then you still have 6 fish. If it were me I’d stop at the 3 Cardinalfish, or do something like a pair of Clowns, or a Royal Gramma and YWG or the Jawfish in a very young tank.

BTW how big is your tank, OP? If it’s a smaller tank adding one or two more fish can massively strain the ecosystem especially if it’s a young tank.

 

[T-MIKE]

The tank is a 5 gallon. I was worried about the thank being too small but I thought the only thing I had to be careful about was ammonia. As far as aggression goes there should be very little. I drip acclimated the fish.

It almost seems like it was the ParaGuard that caused the problem, all 4 died within 4 hours of adding the ParaGuard but I followed the directions by adding 2.5ml a day.

 

[Zionas]

Putting all of those fish into a 5-gallon tank won’t work, whether short term or long term.

 

[DaddyFish]

Just to be sure, check your water source. RO membrane ok? Carbon Block filter(s) ok? Any chance something has changed in water source (supplier switched to chloramines)?

Fish jumping and dying within a few hours of a 20% water change points to incoming water. If you're using a dechlorinator/conditioner (Prime etc.), that would also explain the ammonia spike. Water conditioners don't actually remove chlorine/chloramine, they only temporarily detoxify it, allowing an established biosystem to break it down to nitrite. You have roughly 48-hours to make all that happen before the chlorine is re-released as toxic.

 

[T-MIKE]

Putting all of those fish into a 5-gallon tank won’t work, whether short term or long term.

Why is that? It was only going to be 2 weeks.

 

[DudeBoy]

waaaaay too many fish for a 5 gallon

 

[DeniseAndy]

Well, lets try to understand what is going on here. First, they were not in your main display tank, correct? They were in a 5g that you were using for your quarantine, correct?

Okay, how large is your main display? They still may not be suited, but let's find out more information.
The reason for the 5g being too small is simply stress. They still need some room. Plus, in a small tank like that ammonia will build way to fast to control with that bioload.
You will need to get a larger quarantine tank.
So, far do are we on the same page?

 

[Miller535]

I have to agree with the others. A tank can be cycled, but that means it can process it's current bioload. Every time you add something, the tank has to be able to process more bioload, and that takes time. Which is why its generally best to add fish slowly. And the smaller the tank the slower you need to add. And at 5 gallons, that's just too many fish regardless. I do not mean to kick you while you are down. You made a mistake not knowing.

 

[T-MIKE]

Just to be sure, check your water source. RO membrane ok? Carbon Block filter(s) ok? Any chance something has changed in water source (supplier switched to chloramines)?

Fish jumping and dying within a few hours of a 20% water change points to incoming water. If you're using a dechlorinator/conditioner (Prime etc.), that would also explain the ammonia spike. Water conditioners don't actually remove chlorine/chloramine, they only temporarily detoxify it, allowing an established biosystem to break it down to nitrite. You have roughly 48-hours to make all that happen before the chlorine is re-released as toxic.

The fish jumped in the middle of the night on the 1st day but it was a new environment. They did not jump on the 9th day when I did the water change. I also did not use any conditioners. That's interesting about the chlorine being re-released, I'll have to look into that.

I don't think it was the water. I did a water change from the same 5 gallon bucket of saltwater a few days before I got the fish and also on the same day as when I got the fish because I had to drip acclimate and it took some water out of the tank. The water change on the 9th was also from the same bucket of saltwater.

 

[canadianeh]

Why is that? It was only going to be 2 weeks.

I think there is a rule of thumb floating out there that says 5 gallons per fish I think. But yeah, that is crazy amount of fish in 5 gallons QT tank. That's the main issue that killed those fish.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Sounds like heavy load and use of copper in addition to readings with API kit which may have been less than accurate. Have water tested at a trusted LFS to see what readings they come up with and for comparison with yours.
I also question how fish were acclimated ?

 

[T-MIKE]

Well, lets try to understand what is going on here. First, they were not in your main display tank, correct? They were in a 5g that you were using for your quarantine, correct?

Okay, how large is your main display? They still may not be suited, but let's find out more information.
The reason for the 5g being too small is simply stress. They still need some room. Plus, in a small tank like that ammonia will build way to fast to control with that bioload.
You will need to get a larger quarantine tank.
So, far do are we on the same page?

I have to agree with the others. A tank can be cycled, but that means it can process it's current bioload. Every time you add something, the tank has to be able to process more bioload, and that takes time. Which is why its generally best to add fish slowly. And the smaller the tan the smaller you need to add. And at 5 gallons, that's just too many fish regardless. I do not mean to kick you while you are down. You made a mistake not knowing.

Yeah, I was pretty bummed. I thought what I only really needed to worry about was the ammonia and I did not see any red spots on the fish. It seemed like there was not enough oxygen or they were simply stressed out. I'm going to post a video or 2 soon of when they were struggling.

The display tank is 40 gallons.

 

[Miller535]

My personal Qt is a 10 gallon tank. And I only put 1 fish in in at a time. And with meds aeration is SUPER important, so I have a HOB filter ono the back that is rated I think for 30 gallons, plus I have a sponge filter hooked up to a air pump. And for the most part do a 50% water change every 2 to 3 days. I would suggest maybe looking at some of the threads from @Humblefish , or any of those who post on that area of ree2reef.

 

[javisaman]

5-gallon was too small. Mostly because there isn't enough biological filtration to handle that bioload. Paraguard does not treat ammonia either, you would have had to use Prime.

Assuming 5-gallon was enough (it isn't). The correct procedure could have been:

1. Cycle tank: 30 days. You need to maintain biological load or the bacterial populations will regress. Cycling the tank for a year doesn't add more biological filtration, all it does is make sure the population is stable for the biological load available (neon goby)
2. Add bacteria in a bottle (Dr. Tim's). Add one fish a week, with adding bacteria with every addition.
3. Add Seachem Prime (not Paraguard) to drop the ammonia level first. If you were quarantining, it's better to make sure you ammonia is handled with water changes before treating. The Prime only detoxifies the ammonia/chlorine, it is still in the tank, and will be released again unless the biological filtration or water changes take it out.

A larger tank would have been far more suitable, even a 10-gallon would have worked much better (still risky) but I assume possible. I think for that many fish a 20 gallon long would be best for quarantine. Or just do 1-2 fish at a time in a 10 gallon.

The symptoms you describe are ammonia related. Ammonia is very toxic and will burn the gills of the fish, preventing them from breathing (regardless of the amount of free oxygen in the water column). Fish may have been trying to escape the situation they were put in.

 

[T-MIKE]

Sounds like heavy load and use of copper in addition to readings with API kit which may have been less than accurate. Have water tested at a trusted LFS to see what readings they come up with and for comparison with yours.
I also question how fish were acclimated ?

I didn't use copper unless it was in the Paraguard. It's the same fish that I asked about a few days ago with the long poop by the way. It's the same RO/DI water that I have been using for my display tank. The TDS was measuring zero and my display tank and other tanks have been doing fine.

I will keep a closer watch on the ammonia levels next time I get fish. If I do water changes in the 5g to keep the ammonia down is that good enough or is the tank just not acceptable for that kind of bioload? Only the Coral Beauty was breathing hard and all the other fishes seemed to be breathing normally at the time. It makes me wonder if it was the Paraguard.

 

[T-MIKE]

5-gallon was too small. Mostly because there isn't enough biological filtration to handle that bioload. Paraguard does not treat ammonia either, you would have had to use Prime.

Assuming 5-gallon was enough (it isn't). The correct procedure could have been:

1. Cycle tank: 30 days. You need to maintain biological load or the bacterial populations will regress. Cycling the tank for a year doesn't add more biological filtration, all it does is make sure the population is stable for the biological load available (neon goby)
2. Add bacteria in a bottle (Dr. Tim's). Add one fish a week, with adding bacteria with every addition.
3. Add Seachem Prime (not Paraguard) to drop the ammonia level first. If you were quarantining, it's better to make sure you ammonia is handled with water changes before treating. The Prime only detoxifies the ammonia/chlorine, it is still in the tank, and will be released again unless the biological filtration or water changes take it out.

A larger tank would have been far more suitable even a 10-gallon would have worked much better (still risky) but I assume possible.

The symptoms you describe are ammonia related. Ammonia is very toxic and will burn the gills of the fish, preventing them from breathing (regardless of the amount of free oxygen in the water column). Fish may have been trying to escape the situation they were put in.

I will definitely change my QT method next time. Maybe I wasn't clear in my first post but only one Jawfish escaped on the night of the 1st day and they were trying to jump out as soon as I put them in the acclimation bucket, they are known jumpers. The only sympton I saw was teh Coral Beauty breathing fast. All the other fishes were breathing normally. I also did not see any red on the fish.

 

[T-MIKE]

My personal Qt is a 10 gallon tank. And I only put 1 fish in in at a time. And with meds aeration is SUPER important, so I have a HOB filter ono the back that is rated I think for 30 gallons, plus I have a sponge filter hooked up to a air pump. And for the most part do a 50% water change every 2 to 3 days. I would suggest maybe looking at some of the threads from @Humblefish , or any of those who post on that area of ree2reef.

Yeah, I read a lot of posts. I think I underestimated the bioload. I never got this many fish in at once before but I was watching them and they seemed fine until the 9th day and only the Coral Beauty was breathing hard. I think it might be an oxygen issue but the directions for Paraguard didn't mention anything about needing an airstone like some of the other chemicals. 4 fish died with 4 hours of dosing more Paraguard.