Fish Diseases: What to do following a possible Brooklynella outbreak. Considering Paul B. and Lasse's approach to healthy fish

[KimmyB]

Good afternoon. I need some advice on what I need to do from this point forward. As a little background, I am running a 120-gallon reef tank that was upgraded from a 60 gallon back this past March. I did increase the amount of LR when I upgraded. Since I already had approximately 70 pounds of rock that was at least 5 years established, I added dry rock for the increase. I now have about 130 pounds of rock (estimate) with a 1.5" sandbed. Approximately 2 weeks ago my new baby PB Tang died of what I thought was Marine Velvet. It was introduced directly to the tank without a QT period or observation period. I know, I should have and knew better but didn't. Since his/her death, I have lost nearly all but 4 fish to Brooklynella. The dead fish are: 5-year-old Female WW clown, 2 yr old male Ocellaris, 1 young Banggai, 2 year old RG, & Approximately 4-year-old female Mandarin. Before I realized I had an issue in the tank, the Mandarin was the first to die. I honestly assumed it was her age since they are known to have a much shorter lifespan in captivity so I replaced her with a young male Mandarin that died 1 week after adding. Prior to his death, I lost the baby PB and thought it was Velvet. I treated the DT with Rubby Reef Rally Pro for 3 days at 1oz/ 20g to offer relief till I could catch everyone and QT in copper. Only was able to catch the clowns and a lawnmower blenny. Once I got them in copper, I found out that it was actually Brooklynella thanks to Humblefish's web page. I set up a second QT with MetroPlex and moved them but not before I lost my male clown. Two days into the new QT and I lost my female clown. The only survivors are the one's I could not catch in the DT. They are: 1Domino Damsel, 1 elderly female Banggai, YWG, and the Lawnmower that I moved back to the DT from the QT. These guys are eating really well and have shown zero signs of infection!

Here is the conflict. According to my reading and research, Brooklynella's life cycle is solely on the fish. It does not have a life cycle like ich or velvet. Is it reasonable to think that Brook would not live in the DT due to the lifecycle? Is it possible that the survivors are resistant/immune to it? Is it possible to ever add new fish again considering that the survivors could be carriers? Without having to completely break down the tank and remove rock and corals, there is no way to get the survivors out and I really don't want to disturb the corals and nems if I don't have to. Reading through Lasse's and Paul B's method and am intrigued. I would love to be able to implement this but no clue where to go from here. There HAS to be a way that I can rebuild my livestock without tearing apart my tank to allow a fallow period. Thank you in advance for the responses. If anyone needs more tank info such as parameters, I will be glad to give the information.

 

[MnFish1]

1. Its possible that brooklynella is living on your current fish but not enough to cause 'disease'
2. A fallow period is required for brooklynella as well (they can also live in the tank - until they infect another fish
3. I'm not sure PaulB and Lasse's method work the way you are trying to do it - that is based on a relatively mature, established tank with immune fish.

Maybe @Lasse will chime in.

Many people would suggest that whether its brook or velvet (or both) that the fish should be removed - and treated - which you can do with a fish trap.

 

[ying yang]

Ironic the fish you removed and tried to save with medications was only fish that died.go figure hey.
I dont know what to say to you as ive come full circle on what i intended to do regarding qt and still very confused

 

[Lasse]

Is it right that you have lost 3 fish (two mandarins and 1 tang) in the DT - the other you have lost was after moving and treatment? The four still alive has been in the DT all the time with exception of the lawnmower?

I would test with setting up an observation QT - cycled and ready. I would even use some sand and rocks from the DT Purchase 1 or two new fish and put in the QT. Observe for some weeks. During this time do small WC with help of water from your DT - maybe every or every second day. After three weeks - and if the DT fish still are healthy - you can try to introduce the newcomers into the DT. If you will have some indications of disease in your observation QT - treat with proper medication. Keep a treatment tank ready.

In this way - you will be able to see if you have any pathogens that can cause a disease to your newcomers or/and vaccinate your newcomers in a calm and good environment.

This is not main street - but the way I would handle a thing like this

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Tamberav]

Ironic the fish you removed and tried to save with medications was only fish that died.go figure hey.
I dont know what to say to you as ive come full circle on what i intended to do regarding qt and still very confused

From reading...


The clowns are the only ones that died in a QT tank and they are obviously very prone to dying to brook so this is not even surprising. The rest died in the DT with the blenny surviving QT and a few surviving in the DT.

 

[ying yang]

From reading...


The clowns are the only ones that died in a QT tank and they are obviously very prone to dying to brook so this is not even surprising. The rest died in the DT with the blenny surviving QT and a few surviving in the DT.

Yeah just re- read op
Alot info going on and remember half way through them saying ....

The only survivors are the one's I could not catch in the DT. They are: 1Domino Damsel, 1 elderly female Banggai, YWG, and the Lawnmower that I moved back to the DT from the QT. These guys are eating really well and have shown zero signs of infection!

So yeah my bad as some died in dt first then some in qt

 

[KimmyB]

Is it right that you have lost 3 fish (two mandarins and 1 tang) in the DT - the other you have lost was after moving and treatment? The four still alive has been in the DT all the time with exception of the lawnmower?

I would test with setting up an observation QT - cycled and ready. I would even use some sand and rocks from the DT Purchase 1 or two new fish and put in the QT. Observe for some weeks. During this time do small WC with help of water from your DT - maybe every or every second day. After three weeks - and if the DT fish still are healthy - you can try to introduce the newcomers into the DT. If you will have some indications of disease in your observation QT - treat with proper medication. Keep a treatment tank ready.

In this way - you will be able to see if you have any pathogens that can cause a disease to your newcomers or/and vaccinate your newcomers in a calm and good environment.

This is not main street - but the way I would handle a thing like this

Sincerely Lasse

This is correct. I also lost my RG in the DT sometime last night since it decided to make a heavy base rock its home. It actually died in the rock in the DT. By late morning the CuC had cleaned all remnants of the fish. I will be cleaning the hospital tank and the secondary tank to get it ready to cycle once again. I will definitely take your advice and see how that works. Would you recommend once the newcomers have settled in an observation tank for a few weeks to attempt to move to my refugium? Also, how long should I wait before trying this considering my last death was less than 24 hours ago?

 

[KimmyB]

From reading...


The clowns are the only ones that died in a QT tank and they are obviously very prone to dying to brook so this is not even surprising. The rest died in the DT with the blenny surviving QT and a few surviving in the DT.

Correct. I did have one more death which occurred less than 24 hrs. It was my RG and was one of the fish I could not get out. He hid in a base rock and was refusing food so a bottle trap was useless. I was fully expecting him to die. I just hated that I could not grab him to at least give him the same chance I was able give the clowns.

 

[KimmyB]

Ironic the fish you removed and tried to save with medications was only fish that died.go figure hey.
I dont know what to say to you as ive come full circle on what i intended to do regarding qt and still very confused

The fish that died in QT were some of the last one's to die with the exception of my lawnmower blenny. The death started with my female Mandarin then my PB Tang. By time I realized I had a problem (about a week later) I had already replaced my Mandarin. Talk about feeling like a total bonehead!! I would have never added the new Mandarin if I had known there was a major issue. I assumed the Female was just at the end of her life cycle. By the time the PB died is when I realized there was a problem. I removed the clowns due to them starting to show early stages of what I thought was Velvet but was wrong in the diagnosis. Then added the Lawnmower about 3 days later to the QT. The clowns died at day 4 and day 5 of QT treatment and were the only ones that died in QT. The others that died were in the DT at the time of death.

 

[Tamberav]

Captive mandarins can easily live 10 years. The reason some sites list them as 4 is because of starvation but that’s not natural. That’s failure to care for them.

Not related but just wanted to clarify.

 

[KimmyB]

Captive mandarins can easily live 10 years. The reason some sites list them as 4 is because of starvation but that’s not natural. That’s failure to care for them.

Not related but just wanted to clarify.

That is good to know. My Female was amazing and I was so lucky to have her. We even named her Else the Cow since she was so fat lol. She loved to eat any frozen foods offered to her as well as the occasional Pellet treat. I usually only feed a homemade food blend, Frozen Feast or LRS Reef Frenzy. I have been using Selcon but recently switched to Aqua Forest Fish V to help make sure they get the nutrition they need. Darn fish and dogs eat better than I do lol.

 

[Tamberav]

That is good to know. My Female was amazing and I was so lucky to have her. We even named her Else the Cow since she was so fat lol. She loved to eat any frozen foods offered to her as well as the occasional Pellet treat. I usually only feed a homemade food blend, Frozen Feast or LRS Reef Frenzy. I have been using Selcon but recently switched to Aqua Forest Fish V to help make sure they get the nutrition they need. Darn fish and dogs eat better than I do lol.

lol ya my pets eat like kings. Even make home made raw for the cats so they get what they need and nothing they don’t. Meanwhile I end up eating something with mystery additives.

 

[Lasse]

Would you recommend once the newcomers have settled in an observation tank for a few weeks to attempt to move to my refugium?

IMO - not a bad idea but be sure that you do some WC with DT water during the observation period.

Wait period - unsure - but start the QT - get some fish - wait a week or two before WC with DT water. Observe your DT fish. Especially according eating. IMO bad appetite from a (before) well eating fish is the first sign that´s something is wrong.

Note - I´m not sure this will work but it is the way I would handle a similar problem. I could sound like cruelty not to take up the remaining fish and treat regardless of symptoms or not but IME - this stress the already weakened fish and can end with death. It is always a tough decision to do but IME - the only one that can take the decision is the one that see his/hers fish every day - not a anyone behind a keyboard somewhere in the world.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[KimmyB]

IMO - not a bad idea but be sure that you do some WC with DT water during the observation period.

Wait period - unsure - but start the QT - get some fish - wait a week or two before WC with DT water. Observe your DT fish. Especially according eating. IMO bad appetite from a (before) well eating fish is the first sign that´s something is wrong.

Note - I´m not sure this will work but it is the way I would handle a similar problem. I could sound like cruelty not to take up the remaining fish and treat regardless of symptoms or not but IME - this stress the already weakened fish and can end with death. It is always a tough decision to do but IME - the only one that can take the decision is the one that see his/hers fish every day - not a anyone behind a keyboard somewhere in the world.

Sincerely Lasse

Thank you for taking the time to share your advice and experience. As of now, everyone that is left is thriving. I will give your advice a try and see what happens. Hopefully I will have favorable outcomes.