Fish dying in QT: Clownfish turning brown/purple, blue tang tail rotting

Crown

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Hi,
I’ve had all my fish in QT for about 50 days now. They finished 30 days of copper at 2.5ppm and looked healthy.

I moved them to a new tank with fresh water after copper. Then started 1 round of Prazi + metro + kana.

I was planning a 2nd round of prazi next, but now the fish are only on kana + metro. Not sure why the clownfish is turning purple/brown and the blue hippo’s tail is rotting. The blue hippo was scratching on a rock constantly last week.


Tank Parameters are in line. Ammonia was high for 2 days during tank change, but is now 0.

Feeding twice a day: green + purple nori, Larrys Reef Frenzy, Mysis Shrimp and mixing in TDO pellets every couple days.



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AquaSD

Jay Hemdal

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Oh wow, sorry to see!

The clownfish discoloration is something I’ve only seen here, not in person. We don’t know the cause. It looks like a bruise, but you can only see it on the white portions of the clownfish and it does not seem to be associated with an injury. Minor cases can just go away, but in severe cases like this it is often fatal. Since we don’t know the cause, there is no treatment other than offering the fish support.
The tail on the tang is seriously infected. Did it start from an injury? Once the bacteria has infected the bones of the hypural plate as it seems to have in this case, even if you stop the infection, the tail won’t grow back.
Sorry to only have bad news here!
Jay
 
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Crown

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Oh wow, sorry to see!

The clownfish discoloration is something I’ve only seen here, not in person. We don’t know the cause. It looks like a bruise, but you can only see it on the white portions of the clownfish and it does not seem to be associated with an injury. Minor cases can just go away, but in severe cases like this it is often fatal. Since we don’t know the cause, there is no treatment other than offering the fish support.
The tail on the tang is seriously infected. Did it start from an injury? Once the bacteria has infected the bones of the hypural plate as it seems to have in this case, even if you stop the infection, the tail won’t grow back.
Sorry to only have bad news here!
Jay
Thanks for the quick reply @Jay Hemdal . I believe the blue hippo was constantly scratching on the air stone which caused the tail tissue to fall off.

I’d like to try to save them since they are still swimming and eating normally. Could you recommend a treatment in this situation? Currently dosing metro + kana.
 

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Assume - you're dosing in the water as compared to the food. @Jay Hemdal what kind of picture do you see with copper toxicity. I know that he says the level is 2.5 - but - let's pretend its higher? To me both fish look like something (ammonia, copper, etc) irritated their skin - and they are both infected. But - I'm asking the question not making the diagnosis. One problem with the antibiotic choice. Kanaplex treats primarily gram negative bacteria (very common). Metronidazole is more for anaerobes and parasites. You may be missing a more rare 'gram positive' infection?
 

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Assume - you're dosing in the water as compared to the food. @Jay Hemdal what kind of picture do you see with copper toxicity. I know that he says the level is 2.5 - but - let's pretend its higher? To me both fish look like something (ammonia, copper, etc) irritated their skin - and they are both infected. But - I'm asking the question not making the diagnosis. One problem with the antibiotic choice. Kanaplex treats primarily gram negative bacteria (very common). Metronidazole is more for anaerobes and parasites. You may be missing a more rare 'gram positive' infection?
I don’t see these issues as related and I don’t see any relation to copper toxicity (general unthriftyness, pale color, poor appetite). The tail erosion is most likely gram negative, but to be honest, the fish isn’t going to be able to regrow the damaged bone.
I wish I could learn more about the clownfish bruise issue, but that will require sending out samples for histopathology .
Jay
 
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Crown

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Assume - you're dosing in the water as compared to the food. @Jay Hemdal what kind of picture do you see with copper toxicity. I know that he says the level is 2.5 - but - let's pretend its higher? To me both fish look like something (ammonia, copper, etc) irritated their skin - and they are both infected. But - I'm asking the question not making the diagnosis. One problem with the antibiotic choice. Kanaplex treats primarily gram negative bacteria (very common). Metronidazole is more for anaerobes and parasites. You may be missing a more rare 'gram positive' infection?
Thanks for the reply. The copper was exactly 2.5 according to Hanna. The 2-3 day ammonia spike would be more recent and likely. Dosing the medication into their food and in the water directly.

I don’t see these issues as related and I don’t see any relation to copper toxicity (general unthriftyness, pale color, poor appetite). The tail erosion is most likely gram negative, but to be honest, the fish isn’t going to be able to regrow the damaged bone.
I wish I could learn more about the clownfish bruise issue, but that will require sending out samples for histopathology .
Jay
Could you suggest a last ditch effort to save them? I’m thinking kana + metro + fluran? Or should I do something like kana + metro + prazi? Or switch to maracyn?
If the clownfish doesn’t make it, I could freeze it and send it to you if you’d like to research it.
 

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The tail appears bitten from clown then rubbed raw but concern i have is Over-medication. Thats a lot to throw at these fish. Mixing the latter three raises question and clown appears to have dead tissue
 
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The tail appears bitten from clown then rubbed raw but concern i have is Over-medication. Thats a lot to throw at these fish. Mixing the latter three raises question and clown appears to have dead tissue
Currently dosing kana + metro. Sounds like metro isn’t going to be much help for these two fish? Do you have any treatment suggestions?
 

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Currently dosing kana + metro. Sounds like metro isn’t going to be much help for these two fish? Do you have any treatment suggestions?
Tail rot and fungal /bacterial covered with seachem neoplex. Maracyn 2 also but do a good water change before switching medications
In whereas we want to maintain stablity with water for coral and not chase any values, same applies to medication. . . cant really mix and blend to chase multiple issues although it would be awesome
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Thanks for the reply. The copper was exactly 2.5 according to Hanna. The 2-3 day ammonia spike would be more recent and likely. Dosing the medication into their food and in the water directly.


Could you suggest a last ditch effort to save them? I’m thinking kana + metro + fluran? Or should I do something like kana + metro + prazi? Or switch to maracyn?
If the clownfish doesn’t make it, I could freeze it and send it to you if you’d like to research it.

For the clownfish - to do a proper histopath exam requires starting with a live fish and then euthanizing it, preserving it and sending it to a lab. Basic histo costs upwards of $300, so that isn't really a viable option. I wish I knew what this issue is caused by.....

For a last-ditch effort, using an broad spectrum, gram negative antibiotic would be the way to go so Neoplex or Kanamycin. I don't use a lot of furan drugs, but maybe? I'm still 100% sure that even if you manage to stop the infection, the tang isn't going to be able to regrow its tail. I suppose a fish can survive without a tail if given good supporting care, but I suspect the open bone will just be a source of reinfection.

Jay
 
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Crown

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Tail rot and fungal /bacterial covered with seachem neoplex. Maracyn 2 also but do a good water change before switching medications
In whereas we want to maintain stablity with water for coral and not chase any values, same applies to medication. . . cant really mix and blend to chase multiple issues although it would be awesome

For the clownfish - to do a proper histopath exam requires starting with a live fish and then euthanizing it, preserving it and sending it to a lab. Basic histo costs upwards of $300, so that isn't really a viable option. I wish I knew what this issue is caused by.....

For a last-ditch effort, using an broad spectrum, gram negative antibiotic would be the way to go so Neoplex or Kanamycin. I don't use a lot of furan drugs, but maybe? I'm still 100% sure that even if you manage to stop the infection, the tang isn't going to be able to regrow its tail. I suppose a fish can survive without a tail if given good supporting care, but I suspect the open bone will just be a source of reinfection.

Jay
I’m going to try furan-2 + kanaplex. If that doesn’t work, I’ll try maracyn 2 or neoplex. I’ll report the result here.
 
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For the clownfish - to do a proper histopath exam requires starting with a live fish and then euthanizing it, preserving it and sending it to a lab. Basic histo costs upwards of $300, so that isn't really a viable option. I wish I knew what this issue is caused by.....

For a last-ditch effort, using an broad spectrum, gram negative antibiotic would be the way to go so Neoplex or Kanamycin. I don't use a lot of furan drugs, but maybe? I'm still 100% sure that even if you manage to stop the infection, the tang isn't going to be able to regrow its tail. I suppose a fish can survive without a tail if given good supporting care, but I suspect the open bone will just be a source of reinfection.

Jay

just a quick update…

I know you said you’re 100% sure that the tail won’t grow back, but would you mind taking a look at this photo? I’m starting to see some black tail area growing back. At this point, do you think it’s possible to grow back enough tail to prevent recurring infection?

before photo:
9560D439-5E19-49BF-BB4D-915335BC4296.jpeg


Current photo:
D47743A9-E23D-4A23-BAF8-59517B8EFD73.jpeg



Also an update on the clownfish. I know you said the cause of the black coloring is unknown and this case is likely a fatal one, but it seems to be going away. Glad we didn’t euthanize it to perform a histopath exam.

before photo:
652A792A-F5D0-4B4A-A065-EC815B2F5F0A.jpeg



Current photo:

64DEA5C6-B799-4DEE-A1B7-A4C62F6B61BE.jpeg
 

Paul B

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Hi,
I’ve had all my fish in QT for about 50 days now. They finished 30 days of copper at 2.5ppm and looked healthy.

I moved them to a new tank with fresh water after copper. Then started 1 round of Prazi + metro + kana.

I was planning a 2nd round of prazi next, but now the fish are only on kana + metro. Not sure why the clownfish is turning purple/brown and the blue hippo’s tail is rotting.
To me this is simple. The 50 days of quarantine, 30 days of copper along with Kana (whatever that is) :thinking-face: Prizi and Metro destroyed those fishes immune system killing the fish.

I believe those fish were fine when they were taken out of the sea. Sorry, just my opinion. :confused-face:
 
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Crown

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To me this is simple. The 50 days of quarantine, 30 days of copper along with Kana (whatever that is) :thinking-face: Prizi and Metro destroyed those fishes immune system killing the fish.

I believe those fish were fine when they were taken out of the sea. Sorry, just my opinion. :confused-face:
Unfortunately my fish tank is not the sea. So taking precautions and following the stickied QT protocol.
 

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I did not see this thread sooner but I had a damsel that had very bad tail infection. I was able to cure it with 14 days of daily NFG green dips. I did double strength for 30 min.

Its tail only partially regrew a section of fin but the fish healed up and does not seem to have problems getting around and living damsel life.


This is the med I used. It is a broad spectrum antibiotic mixed with methylene blue.

 

Jay Hemdal

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just a quick update…

I know you said you’re 100% sure that the tail won’t grow back, but would you mind taking a look at this photo? I’m starting to see some black tail area growing back. At this point, do you think it’s possible to grow back enough tail to prevent recurring infection?

before photo:
9560D439-5E19-49BF-BB4D-915335BC4296.jpeg


Current photo:
D47743A9-E23D-4A23-BAF8-59517B8EFD73.jpeg



Also an update on the clownfish. I know you said the cause of the black coloring is unknown and this case is likely a fatal one, but it seems to be going away. Glad we didn’t euthanize it to perform a histopath exam.

before photo:
652A792A-F5D0-4B4A-A065-EC815B2F5F0A.jpeg



Current photo:

64DEA5C6-B799-4DEE-A1B7-A4C62F6B61BE.jpeg

Good to see!

Sorry, I can’t tell if the tail is regrowing, you are in a better position to see that. It does seem that you stopped the infection though. I couldn’t find it, but I have a photo of a blue tang with a damaged hypural plate - the caudal fin has a notch in it that never grew back. It’s like losing a finger, the bone just doesn’t grow back.

I had another case earlier this week of a less serious clownfish lesion and it got better also! I wasn’t suggesting that you euthanize this fish, just was outlining what would need to happen to ever get to the root issue of this malady. The water looks a bit cloudy in the second photo, or is that just an artifact of the photo? Water quality can suffer after antibiotic treatment…

For what it’s worth - I’ve run literally thousands of fish through our quarantine protocol, including over a hundred hepatus tangs and perhaps 125 clowns and never had either of these issues show - I firmly believe this is not directly related to the quarantine protocol.

Jay
 
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Unfortunately my fish tank is not the sea. So taking precautions and following the stickied QT protocol.
OK, many people think that way. I hope they get cured. :)

I firmly believe this is not directly related to the quarantine protocol.

I firmly disagree with this. But thats just me. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:
 

Jay Hemdal

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OK, many people think that way. I hope they get cured. :)



I firmly disagree with this. But thats just me. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:
You can disagree, but my data set is huge going back to 2014 when I developed this overall protocol. Have you actually ever tried it?

I’ve never had either of these two issues show up in any of those fish, so I can emphatically say the protocol is NOT the cause here.

The reason I am so firm on this topic is that your opinion has the potential to cause a lot of harm to the fish for the vast majority of people buying from typical LFS.


Jay
 

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