Fish Dying in QT

[BPC10001]

Question for the experts out there @Jay Hemdal. I’ve read as much as I can from Jay and have tried the best I can do replicate the successes and minimize the losses.

I set up a quarantine tank on 8/1. The tank is a 40 gallon breeder. I’m using an Aquaclear 70 + a sponge filter + have an extra airline / air stone in.

The tank has the following fish:

1x Sixline
1x hippo tang
2x spoticintus clowns
4x Azure damsels

Parameters as follows:
SG: 1.025
Temperature: 79
Ammonia: 0

When I started the QT, I used seeded sponges from my DT + added extra doctor Tim’s. I know the tank is cycled as everyone has been healthy and happy and eating well. I do 10% water changes regularly to ensure ammonia is low but do keep 2 Seachem alert badges in the tank to be extra sure.

I started copper treatments 2 weeks ago. I am using copper power and raised the levels SLOWLY going from 0 - 2.3ppm over 8 days. Everyone has been eating well and behaving normally. Copper levels have been stable for a week.

This morning I woke up and two of my damsels were dead on the bottom of the tank. I was a little confused as they were healthy / eating last night. I removed them and chalked it up to them having something that was undetected pre treatment. I fed the fish after I removed the two dead damsels and everyone ate well.

I just went to check on the tank, and a third damsel now looks like he’s struggling. Losing color / lying on side / acting weird. I’m sure I’m going to lose him too.

I cant for the life of me figure out what is wrong. I monitor my tanks religiously and none of the fish have any visible spots. There is occasional scratching but nothing repetitive like in some of the videos.

Any ideas / help would be greatly appreciated.

Dead damsels (8/20)

Photo from 8/14

 

[agame2021]

What about phosphates, alk, PH, ETC? The more info you give us the better we can try and help guess the problem.

 

[BPC10001]

PH = 8.0
dkh = 9.5
CA = 440
Mag = 1250

Don't have a phosphate test.

3rd Damsel is dead

 

[BPC10001]

To be very specific:

I started the copper treatments on 8/9. I dosed morning and night and took 48 to raise levels from 0ppm - 1.08ppm (checked with the Hanna checker 1x / day)

I then took an additional 5 days to raise the level from 1.18 - 2.32 ppm where it is now. I did 3 water changes during that span as well and made sure I matched the salt, temperature, & copper in my fresh batch for the water changes perfectly before starting the changes.

Fish have all been eating well the entire time and the level has been >2.11ppm since 8/15 @ 4PM ET. I've been keeping records of my copper treatment which i've posted below. I feed a mixture of frozen mysis / algae, pellets & flakes and everything is consumed within a few minutes. I make sure I vaccuum all detritus out of the tank during water changes.

It seems like the Tang is acting more skittish than normal (hanging around the air stone / swimming into the bubbles / hiding in the back corner) versus his normal swimming around the tank. Maybe i'm being paranoid, but I really hope I don't lose the entire QT.

Really can't figure out what is going on here. I just added two more capfuls of Dr. Tim's to the ceramic media / sponges in my filter just in case the ammonia is creeping and the badges aren't showing it. I only use RO water which I store in a brute trash can a few feet from the tank. This is the same water I use in my DT / Frag tank and everything there is healthy happy. I have separate buckets / hoses / equipment for water changes to eliminate any cross contamination and this tank is more than 10' away from all other tanks (DT & Frag)

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Look for rapid breathing in the remaining fish. No damsels had fin damage? Do you have any other ability to measure ammonia other than the badges?

Taking 8 days to raise copper is a grave mistake - any dose less than therapeutic allows for protozoans to multiply. This "ramp copper up slowly" idea has gotten out of hand. It is all based on using old style copper sulfate/citric acid. With that material, if you raised it too fast (in less than 24 hours) it would stress certain fish - notably pygmy angels. This idea has been carried on and then extended. The three main copper products; Coppersafe, Copper Power and Cupramine should be dosed immediately. The only reason I tell people to add it in multiple doses is that most folks do not have a good handle on the actual volume of their tanks, and adding it as a couple of partial doses allows folks to test and redose more accurately.

Jay

 

[BPC10001]

Look for rapid breathing in the remaining fish. No damsels had fin damage? Do you have any other ability to measure ammonia other than the badges?

Taking 8 days to raise copper is a grave mistake - any dose less than therapeutic allows for protozoans to multiply. This "ramp copper up slowly" idea has gotten out of hand. It is all based on using old style copper sulfate/citric acid. With that material, if you raised it too fast (in less than 24 hours) it would stress certain fish - notably pygmy angels. This idea has been carried on and then extended. The three main copper products; Coppersafe, Copper Power and Cupramine should be dosed immediately. The only reason I tell people to add it in multiple doses is that most folks do not have a good handle on the actual volume of their tanks, and adding it as a couple of partial doses allows folks to test and redose more accurately.

Jay

@Jay Hemdal thank you so much for this...I had no idea on the copper and that is helpful information to have on hand. I added the fish at the following times if this information helps:

8/3

• 1x Clown
• 1x Sixline
• 1x Damsel

8/5

• 1x Hippo Tang

8/11

• 1x Clown
• 3x Damsels

I'm wondering if the 3x Damsels that just went were all from the last batch I bought last week. I don't believe the damsels had any fin damage, at least nothing that jumped out to me. No rapid breathing in any of the other fish. I didn't think I could measure ammonia in the tank once copper had been dosed. With that said, I have both an ELOS & API test kit and would be happy to run both of those if you think its worth while.

It just seems very odd that they were all eating aggressively last night and then were dead within 12 -18 hours...

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal thank you so much for this...I had no idea on the copper and that is helpful information to have on hand. I added the fish at the following times if this information helps:

8/3

• 1x Clown
• 1x Sixline
• 1x Damsel

8/5

• 1x Hippo Tang

8/11

• 1x Clown
• 3x Damsels

I'm wondering if the 3x Damsels that just went were all from the last batch I bought last week. I don't believe the damsels had any fin damage, at least nothing that jumped out to me. No rapid breathing in any of the other fish. I didn't think I could measure ammonia in the tank once copper had been dosed. With that said, I have both an ELOS & API test kit and would be happy to run both of those if you think its worth while.

It just seems very odd that they were all eating aggressively last night and then were dead within 12 -18 hours...

Yes, that is unusual for fish to go from eating to death in less than 24 hours. That’s why I asked about the big three; velvet, water quality and injury. The fourth cause is lack of aeration, but I ruled that out due to the sponge filter in the picture.
Jay

 

[BPC10001]

Coloration & attitude on the remaining fish all seems fine. The damsel that just died literally ate this morning....

I don't want to make any rash decisions and move them too early, so I guess i'll just let this play it's course. The tang comes right up when I put food in the tank (as do the other fish) but I don't see the Tang eating now. The other fish are basically jumping out of the water the second I drop food in the tank

 

[agame2021]

One other thing I saw on BRSTV is to think about soaps and other things such as perfume/cologne etc… that is just about the only other thing I have heard of that might have a reaction to copper. However with those water changes I doubt anything like that could effect these fish. They say it effects corals more.

hope the rest of your QT survives!

 

[BPC10001]

One other thing I saw on BRSTV is to think about soaps and other things such as perfume/cologne etc… that is just about the only other thing I have heard of that might have a reaction to copper. However with those water changes I doubt anything like that could effect these fish. They say it effects corals more.

hope the rest of your QT survives!

Thanks @agame2021 - I'm VERY careful about this. No hairsprays / deodorants / cologne / etc have been sprayed in the room with the tank. I did put a top on the tank made from egg crate from homedepot but that's been on since the beginning.

I just did an Elos Ammonia test and it's showing the slightest read of ammonia (though I know these get impacted by the copper). Not sure how to interpret this / if I should do another water change. The colors aren't great on the Elos test kit but it's reading <0.1

 

[mike89t]

Were the damsels breathing hard? I wonder if this is possibly cyanide poisoning?

 

[BPC10001]

Were the damsels breathing hard? I wonder if this is possibly cyanide poisoning?

What would cause this? I haven't noticed any of the fish breathing hard. I spend a lot of time looking at this tank (out of sheer paranoia, even before problems started happening...) and never noticed anything

 

[mike89t]

What would cause this? I haven't noticed any of the fish breathing hard. I spend a lot of time looking at this tank (out of sheer paranoia, even before problems started happening...) and never noticed anything

A lot of wild fish are still caught by spraying cyanide. It's a terrible practice. It just seems strange that all of the other fish are fine but the damsels are struggling.

 

[BPC10001]

Wow - that's horrible.

My guess is this is not the case. I've bought 4 damsels all from the same LFS. First one I got on 8/3 (still alive) and the three that just died I got on 8/13. All came from the same tank. Would be strange that they would die 1+ week after coming home being in pristine water, no?

I know my parameters are kept just as if not more stable than the LFS....

 

[BPC10001]

Lost the last Damsel. 0 remaining....

Guess i'll do a water change tomorrow and see what happens. Hoping I don't lose anything else

 

[Jubei2006]

I know it's a little late but I had a similar situation with a group of Bangaii cardinals. Started with a group of six (going into a 525 gallon). They died off one by one until one was left. Water parameters were good and no signs of disease. They were supposedly tank raised. They were petco fish ( my wife's fault). They were all eating well at purchase, then suddenly dead one to two at a time over a several day period. Did fenbendazole treatment to start the quarantine. Had two HOB filters and an airstone for them. Best I came up with was stress from being in a 29gallon high, crowding, and species specific bullying. I didn't see them actually chasing each other, but I couldn't rule it out either. No ammonia, acclimated properly, varied diet, and PVC for hiding spots. Filter media in the HOBS from an established tank. Guess I can't fully rule out ich or velvet, but there was no rapid breathing, films, or spots on the dead fish. So now I have 1 copper treated Bangaii in a 525 gallon tank.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I know it's a little late but I had a similar situation with a group of Bangaii cardinals. Started with a group of six (going into a 525 gallon). They died off one by one until one was left. Water parameters were good and no signs of disease. They were supposedly tank raised. They were petco fish ( my wife's fault). They were all eating well at purchase, then suddenly dead one to two at a time over a several day period. Did fenbendazole treatment to start the quarantine. Had two HOB filters and an airstone for them. Best I came up with was stress from being in a 29gallon high, crowding, and species specific bullying. I didn't see them actually chasing each other, but I couldn't rule it out either. No ammonia, acclimated properly, varied diet, and PVC for hiding spots. Filter media in the HOBS from an established tank. Guess I can't fully rule out ich or velvet, but there was no rapid breathing, films, or spots on the dead fish. So now I have 1 copper treated Bangaii in a 525 gallon tank.

Wild caught Banggai often die off like that. Did the fenbendazole treatment come before the losses? That drug has shown a toxicity in isolated cases that causes loss over a week after being dosed.
Jay

 

[Jubei2006]

Wild caught Banggai often die off like that. Did the fenbendazole treatment come before the losses? That drug has shown a toxicity in isolated cases that causes loss over a week after being dosed.
Jay

Thanks for the reply Jay. We appreciate all you do for us here. They told my wife that they were tank raised bangaii, and they were all quite small when we got them. I actually dosed the fenbendazole a bit lower than recommended initially just for that reason. I lost one of the Bangaiis before treatment, and some during. What I did notice is that the smallest of the group would slowly drift away from the pack, and stop eating, and then be dead by 12 to 24 hours. No real change in respiratory rates. I assumed it was due to bullying since it always seemed to be the smaller fish. Had 3 Bangaiis years ago in a 125 with no problems, but found out recently that the species will become much more aggressive to each other as they mature. Guess with previous experience and seeing the in groups at the LFS I never gave it much thought until this happened.

 

[BPC10001]

To close the loop on this...my issue was flukes. My tang had it bad (confirmed by freshwater dip) and i'm sure the other fish in the tank did as well. The copper safe must have been suppressing it and I didn't run Prazi in time. I ended up losing 6 damsels, a sixline and a hippo all within 48 hours