Fish Dying in Quarantine

ggNoRe

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I have had 4 fish in a row die in my quarantine system and I am clueless as to why. First fish I added was a Copperband Butterfly. When I first got him he was eating frozen food like crazy and was healthier than any Copperband I have seen before. A few days later I added a Flame Fin Tomini tang. About 2 days later both fish died. There was never any signs of bullying or stress. They went from looking healthy, eating, swimming around then when I came home from work they lay there dead. Inspected both no signs of parasites or diseases.

I considered this a fluke and maybe the Tomini was ill when I got him and thus decided to try again. I changed all the filter media and dosed copper a little earlier this time around. Same purchases same timeline same result. Purchased Copperband then purchased Tomini few days later. Few days later both dead. This time the Copperband had a few spots although I'm not sure if they are related to the deaths.

Some facts about the system. 20G long, Aquamax 50 HOB filter. Temp 78. Salinity 1.023. Tank has been cycled for about 4 months now. I have successfully quarantined fish in this system previously with no issues.

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mike89t

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How long was the QT empty before adding the new fish?

Did you do anything to sterilize the QT before adding the second round of fish?
 
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ggNoRe

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I use CopperPower and test with Hanna copper tester. The first time I had copper at 1.5 when the first batch of fish died. This time I started around 1.5 but increased to 2.1 in first 48hours. I have never used seachem prime. I did dose general cure the 2nd time but not the first.

The QT was empty only a couple weeks in between both failed tries. I did not sterilize the tank only changed filter media.

Before I try again I will almost certainly sterilize the system. Any suggestions on how this is most effectively and efficiently done? Was trying to circumvent having to do a whole cycle over again but looks like I may have no choice at this point. I definitely don't want to kill anymore fish.
 

BostonReefer300

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I use CopperPower and test with Hanna copper tester. The first time I had copper at 1.5 when the first batch of fish died. This time I started around 1.5 but increased to 2.1 in first 48hours. I have never used seachem prime. I did dose general cure the 2nd time but not the first.

The QT was empty only a couple weeks in between both failed tries. I did not sterilize the tank only changed filter media.

Before I try again I will almost certainly sterilize the system. Any suggestions on how this is most effectively and efficiently done? Was trying to circumvent having to do a whole cycle over again but looks like I may have no choice at this point. I definitely don't want to kill anymore fish.
Well, sorry about your loss and I understand how frustrating this is.
To sterilize your QT setup, just spray down everything with bleach and then rinse everything thoroughly and let air dry. (You don't have any rock in your QT, right?).
In the future, I'd suggest not co-dosing any other medicine---just do one at a time. Usually copper is enough for the recommended period, then a few days of prazipro or the like (including general cure).
I always put a good sized sponge filter run by an air pump in my QT. Medications can stress fish, so having highly oxygenated water can help them. The sponge also hosts a lot of bacteria. I also use a small HOB filter to actually filter the water and for circulation.
Finally, if you got those fish from the same source, I'd recommend trying somewhere else. Why not buy pre-quarantined fish on-line and watch them in QT for a while without any medication unless you see disease symptoms?
 
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ggNoRe

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I added an airstone for the first 2 that died but took it out after thinking it was the only variable between my previous quarantined fish that did well and the new batch that died.

Do you think a normal airstone (or wooden one) would suffice for extra oxygenation as I already have those on hand? Or it's worth it to spend the money and get yet another object for my hobby? Keep in mind I have quarantined several other fish with only the Aquamax 50 filter.

I don't have any rock just a couple small media bricks from my display, a small Tupperware full of sand from display, and normal media in HOB filter.

Also about cycling the tank. Should I use media from my display to quick cycle or do the whole insta bac + ammonia thing?

And about my display.. I too am in the camp of did not quarantine until I had several fish die (think it may have been brooklynella). So with that in mind out of 15 or so fish only a few have went through quarantine. All fish in display have currently been in there over 2 months and are doing well with the exception I recently saw what looks to be a fluke on my flame angel. He is swimming and eating normally but I was thinking of dosing prazipro in my display as a precautionary. Is this a good idea?
 
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BostonReefer300

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OK, thanks for the extra detail. There are a few things to discuss.
Regarding the fish in your DT, I'm guessing you probably do have some health issues going on given the number of fish, no QT, and (if I'm understanding you correctly) some fish deaths in your DT. If you suspect flukes, I'd read up about them in the disease forum sticky threads to make sure before you do anything. Have you seen any other issues? Stringy poop, white spots on skin/fins, labored breathing, fish trying to scratch an itch using rocks or sand?
Regarding a QT, having an air pump driven sponge filter in addition to your other filter unit is a very good idea. It's pretty cheap and, when not in use, you can store your sponge filter in your sump. It will add a bunch of great surface area for bacteria and will be ready to use anytime you need to start your QT up.
Regarding cycling your QT, you don't need ammonia. Just use your current filter, the new sponge filter, properly mixed salt water, a heater, and a bottle of biospira or other suitable nitrifying bacteria product. You will be instantly cycled. You only need to feed ammonia or add food to sustain the biofilter if you're not going to add fish for a while.
 

vetteguy53081

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Sounds like low oxygen or ammonia spike. Low oxygen will also alter ph . Airstone is a must for me with QT. Any noticeable signs yesterday (diet, heavy breathing, skin issues ?
How were you monitoring water quality ?
 

darwindiaz

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Like what vetteguy said. Have you tested for ammonia spike. Since you're using copper there wouldn't be much beneficial bacteria to eat up ammonia. So ammonia level may have raised up pretty quickly.
 

BostonReefer300

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Like what vetteguy said. Have you tested for ammonia spike. Since you're using copper there wouldn't be much beneficial bacteria to eat up ammonia. So ammonia level may have raised up pretty quickly.
Copper isn't going to kill off the beneficial bacteria. That being said, an ammonia spike is possible particularly if there wasn't a robust enough biofilter established
 
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ggNoRe

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I would consider sand, media blocks, and ceramic filter in HOB pretty robust, right?

I have 0 ammonia ever since originally cycled many months ago tested by both an ammonia badge and strips.

I too was worried of oxygenation which is why I had a wooden airstone and the aeration for a 50G filter on a 20G tank. Wouldn't this be tremendous overkill? First 2 fish died that way.
May be worth mentioning, it is in my insulated garage with no windows and PH tested low. But again I have had several other fish live for months in the same system with no issues.

No signs of heavy breathing, skin issues, or stringy poop.

In my display the flame angel I have seen rub things on occasion. One gray circle spot on his side a few mm's around it is barely noticeable without paying very close attention. No stringy poop or any signs of stress. I'm more less just thinking if Prazipro is truly 100% reef safe it could potentially knockout a few things with no negative side effects? Not only for the Angel who is seemingly fine other than a spot that may or may not be anything but for any future fish I add. Is this sound logic?
 

DaddyFish

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Are General Cure and CopperPower the only meds you are using in QT? If you are dosing anything with formaldehyde/formalin like Ich-X, be aware that the smallest trace level of copper when combined with formalin causes copper to become highly toxic and rapid fish death.

I too have had bad experiences with QT when I get impatient or attempt to close the gap between meds. I highly recommend you give the fish 2-3 days between meds and always reserve copper for the last stage since it's the most difficult to eliminate from the water column. That way you are sterilizing the QT system right after the final stage of copper and getting a clean start on the next batch. Two tanks are better than one QT if you can swing it.
 
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ggNoRe

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I have never dosed anything in this system other than CopperPower and General Cure. I have had a mystery wrasse, another Copperband, and a blue tang go through this combo without any issues in the past in the same system. It wasn't until I added the first Tomini Tang that things went south. From what I know there are only 2 logical possibilities. One, the tomini brought a nasty contagious disease to to the system that needs to be sterilized (I'm leaning towards this). Two, low oxygen but I have received so much conflicting information online on how to tell when a system is lacking oxygen or not.

Not trying to sound like I know it all as I definitely don't and would really like to learn more specifically on oxygen levels and brooklynella.
 

BostonReefer300

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Thanks for the additional info. Sounds like dosing Prazi in your DT isn't going to hurt anything and is worth it at least for peace of mind. When you're talking about the sand, media blocks and ceramic in the HOB, are you talking about your QT? All that should be good for biofiltration. I don't use sand in my QTs unless I'm QTing sand sifting fish or inverts.
I still recommend using a sponge filter instead of an airstone because the former will also give tremendous surface area for bacteria. Good luck and keep us posted!
 

Uncle99

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Keep in mind that tang can be aggressive and the copper band is meek. IMM, I would have done separately. Copper bands can be finicky eaters at times and many are lost to this.

I don’t use any meds ever until I have made a diagnos of a problem.

If they go in an act, eat, swim, breath consistently for 21 days, the last 7 I just increase the salinity and they are done.

Used Hypo once for ICK on a Powder Blue 15 years ago.
 
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ggNoRe

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Thanks for the additional info. Sounds like dosing Prazi in your DT isn't going to hurt anything and is worth it at least for peace of mind. When you're talking about the sand, media blocks and ceramic in the HOB, are you talking about your QT? All that should be good for biofiltration. I don't use sand in my QTs unless I'm QTing sand sifting fish or inverts.
I still recommend using a sponge filter instead of an airstone because the former will also give tremendous surface area for bacteria. Good luck and keep us posted!
Yep, they are all in the QT.

 

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