Fish stopped eating food while treating with copper power

[pnchowdary]

I am in the process of quarantining my five bengai cardinals, damsel and clownfish with copper power. I am using a bare bottom fully cycled 29gallon tank with canister filter, Hob and Mp40 powerhead. I was slowly raising the copper power levels. I am also feeding them general cure + focus. I stated with 0.75 and was raising no more than 0.25 per day. At 1 ppm one of my cardinals died. Then at 1.5 my damsel died. Now I am 1.77 and one of the other cardinals started hiding in the cave and not eating properly. So, I paused any more copper from the last 2 days. It is still not eating. I don’t want the fish to die. Please let me know whether it is advisable to move him into a new uncycled tank without copper. Hopefully if he recovers, what are my options at that point of time. My ammonia and nitrate are at 0. I am using Seachem alert badge and Seneye reef monitor. Please advise how to,proceed, This is my first time quarantining fish. Kindly correct anything I might be doing wrong. Appreciate all your help.

 

[Coxey81]

I am in the process of quarantining my five bengai cardinals, damsel and clownfish with copper power. I am using a bare bottom fully cycled 29gallon tank with canister filter, Hob and Mp40 powerhead. I was slowly raising the copper power levels. I am also feeding them general cure + focus. I stated with 0.75 and was raising no more than 0.25 per day. At 1 ppm one of my cardinals died. Then at 1.5 my damsel died. Now I am 1.77 and one of the other cardinals started hiding in the cave and not eating properly. So, I paused any more copper from the last 2 days. It is still not eating. I don’t want the fish to die. Please let me know whether it is advisable to move him into a new uncycled tank without copper. Hopefully if he recovers, what are my options at that point of time. My ammonia and nitrate are at 0. I am using Seachem alert badge and Seneye reef monitor. Please advise how to,proceed, This is my first time quarantining fish. Kindly correct anything I might be doing wrong. Appreciate all your help.

Are you using seneye to measure copper levels?

I would get a hanna. That's what everyone seems to use and the only one trusted for measuring copper.

Sorry, I'm new to quartining too, but that's my best suggestion.

 

[pnchowdary]

Are you using seneye to measure copper levels?

I would get a hanna. That's what everyone seems to use and the only one trusted for measuring copper.

Sorry, I'm new to quartining too, but that's my best suggestion.

I am using Seneye/ Seachem badge for ammonia and I am using Hanna high range copper checker for copper.

 

[Coxey81]

I am using Seneye/ Seachem badge for ammonia and I am using Hanna high range copper checker for copper.

Hmm, maybe someone more expert will chime in... but sounds like it's not the copper, but maybe a disease/parasite they all have.

 

[threebuoys]

I think it's unlikely the deaths are related to the copper.
Generally, when dosing Copper Power or Copper Safe you should try to get to the 2.5 ppm level in no more than two days, perhaps even faster if parasites are visible on the fish.

I assume you just acquire the fish and moved them directly into QT. Do you have any pictures available? What are some of your other water parameters? temp, salinity,etc.

 

[Sharkbait19]

Copper is known to suppress fish appetite.
It’s possible the damsel died from other causes, like disease (already too sick before treatment) or aggression. Same for the other cardinal, since they are known not to like each other in many circumstances.
If the fish continue to not eat, consider lowering the copper concentration until they do. Of course, if it’s just the one fish not eating, it sounds more like disease or aggression.

 

[threebuoys]

if in fact your fish have either crypto or velvet, which should be visual, and assuming you are at 1.77 now, you should go straight to 2.5 ppm asap. My experience with these species has been they are very tolerant and seem to adapt to a variety of food quickly. What are you feeding?

 

[pnchowdary]

I think it's unlikely the deaths are related to the copper.
Generally, when dosing Copper Power or Copper Safe you should try to get to the 2.5 ppm level in no more than two days, perhaps even faster if parasites are visible on the fish.

I assume you just acquire the fish and moved them directly into QT. Do you have any pictures available? What are some of your other water parameters? temp, salinity

I think it's unlikely the deaths are related to the copper.
Generally, when dosing Copper Power or Copper Safe you should try to get to the 2.5 ppm level in no more than two days, perhaps even faster if parasites are visible on the fish.

I assume you just acquire the fish and moved them directly into QT. Do you have any pictures available? What are some of your other water parameters? temp, salinity,etc.

Humble fish website says to bring the copper power to 2.5/ppm in 6 to 7 days. The fish were all freshwater dipped as soon as they arrived home and were treated with Prazipro for a couple of weeks and they were all doing fine. Then I started dosing copper power with general cure and focus. I am not noticing any visible aggression. My temp is 79 to 80 and salinity is around 30. I didn’t notice any signs of disease on them. My clownfish was showing white spots and I moved to him to QT before starting copper power and he is doing fine.

 

[pnchowdary]

Copper is known to suppress fish appetite.
It’s possible the damsel died from other causes, like disease (already too sick before treatment) or aggression. Same for the other cardinal, since they are known not to like each other in many circumstances.
If the fish continue to not eat, consider lowering the copper concentration until they do. Of course, if it’s just the one fish not eating, it sounds more like disease or aggression.

Only one of the cardinal is not eating. The others are doing good.

 

[Coxey81]

if in fact your fish have either crypto or velvet, which should be visual, and assuming you are at 1.77 now, you should go straight to 2.5 ppm asap. My experience with these species has been they are very tolerant and seem to adapt to a variety of food quickly. What are you feeding?

Maybe the combo of the copper and prazi is too much on them?

I know Jay recommends only doing one at a time.

Copper up, then remove it to safe levels. Then do prazipro.

 

[T-J]

Humble fish website says to bring the copper power to 2.5/ppm in 6 to 7 days. The fish were all freshwater dipped as soon as they arrived home and were treated with Prazipro for a couple of weeks and they were all doing fine. Then I started dosing copper power with general cure and focus. I am not noticing any visible aggression. My temp is 79 to 80 and salinity is around 30. I didn’t notice any signs of disease on them. My clownfish was showing white spots and I moved to him to QT before starting copper power and he is doing fine.

Why is your salinity so low? I've read that copper and hyposalinity should not be done at the same time.

 

[pnchowdary]

Maybe the combo of the copper and prazi is too much on them?

I know Jay recommends only doing one at a time.

Copper up, then remove it to safe levels. Then do prazipro.

I did perform 50% water change after Prazipro treatment. Maybe I should have done two 50% water changes instead before starting copper.

 

[Sharkbait19]

Only one of the cardinal is not eating. The others are doing good.

They are known to pick each other off down to a pair.

 

[pnchowdary]

Why is your salinity so low? I've read that copper and hyposalinity should not be done at the same time.

I wanted to do do hyposalinity and copper at the same time. So I decreased the salinity to 25. I read several articles recommending not dosing copper when salinity is less than 27. Therefore the next two days, I raised the salinity to 30 and then started dosing copper. Please advise whether I need to raise the salinity further to improve things.

 

[pnchowdary]

I wanted to do do hyposalinity and copper at the same time. So I decreased the salinity to 25. I read several articles recommending not dosing copper when salinity is less than 27. Therefore the next two days, I raised the salinity to 30 and then started dosing copper. Please advise whether I need to raise the salinity further to improve things.

I started to use saltwater at 35 ppm for top off for the last 4 days. I just measured the salinity and it is now 32 ppm

 

[threebuoys]

Current QT Guidelines: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/unread

The thinking here is that crypto or velvet have a bigger risk than flukes for newly acquired fish, hence treat with copper first after a day or two of observation (or immediately if parasites are visually present), and that the long ramp up is not necessary.In fact can be risky if the fish are infected since the copper is not effective until the full dose is realized.

Salinity can be increased more gradually from where yo are now. Salinity shock can occur when fish are first acclimated if you have a big difference between the tank and the transport water, but if you are at 30 ppt now, you don't need to rush it to get to 35 ppt (1.026 sg).

 

[pnchowdary]

Current QT Guidelines: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/unread

The thinking here is that crypto or velvet have a bigger risk than flukes for newly acquired fish, hence treat with copper first after a day or two of observation (or immediately if parasites are visually present), and that the long ramp up is not necessary.In fact can be risky if the fish are infected since the copper is not effective until the full dose is realized.

Salinity can be increased more gradually from where yo are now. Salinity shock can occur when fish are first acclimated if you have a big difference between the tank and the transport water, but if you are at 30 ppt now, you don't need to rush it to get to 35 ppt (1.026 sg).

That makes sense. I will follow that from next time. In my current position, would you recommend 50% water change with water at same copper level. What do I do now?

 

[threebuoys]

That makes sense. I will follow that from next time. In my current position, would you recommend 50% water change with water at same copper level. What do I do now?

Sounds like you did a 50% water change 4 or 5 days ago and after a round of prazipro. If that's the case, and since your ammonia and nitrates are 0 and your salinity is at 32ppt and your copper is at 1.77, I would just raise the copper to 2.50 ppm and not change anything else for the time being. If you have other factors that concern you that would be improved by a water change, that would be fine. You should still shoot for the 2.50. The white spots on the clown may have been something else, but they could be an indication that parasites are in the tank and you need to QT the full 30 days at 2.50ppm.

 

[pnchowdary]

Here are some photos of the fish and the last two photos is of the cardinal that is not eating and hiding.

 

[threebuoys]

They are known to pick each other off down to a pair.

I had this experience with my cardinals, although it did not occur until they had settled down in the DT. The two survivors had paired off and they have periodically spawned over the past year. The male carries the eggs in his mouth for this species. Unfortunately, in every case, the male either eats or spits out the eggs after several days, so none have hatched yet.

I suppose you might be experiencing this, I don't know how quickly the pairing process works before the odd one is banished. I have also had aggression with clownfish where two that paired off shunned a third clown. So, something to watch for.