Fishless Cycle

xtremethings

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I started a fishless cycle with Fritz TurboStart 900 and Fishless Fuel about 4 weeks ago. I thought the cycle was complete since my ammonia dropped to zero at day 10 with nitrates dropping to zero around day 14 and nitrates ending up at 20 ppm.

Thinking all was good, the plan was to do a water change to drop the nitrates a bit after I got back from a short vacation, but it seems like I’ve had another ammonia (0.25) and nitrite (0.25) spike for some reason. Nitrates are still hovering around 20 ppm.

My LFS says they’ve never experienced this before and there’s been zero movement in the water parameters in three days now. They say I could add another bottle of the 900 nitrifying bacteria, but I’m just curious if anyone else has seen this before?

Tank Specs During Cycling:
-Reefer 350
-Filled with salt mixed RODI
-Zero livestock
-60 lbs of CaribSea special grade sand
-75 lbs of CaribSea LifeRock
-ClariSea filter roller
 
Orphek OR3 reef aquarium LED lighting

mrlavalamp

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what test kits are you using.

Asking because API is known to have issues like this. Actual is zero but the kit comes back with a low reading.

could you take a water sample in to the lfs and see what they read for comparison? My lfs all use api for the free tests, but you can pay them to test with other better kits if you want.
 
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xtremethings

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what test kits are you using.

Asking because API is known to have issues like this. Actual is zero but the kit comes back with a low reading.

could you take a water sample in to the lfs and see what they read for comparison? My lfs all use api for the free tests, but you can pay them to test with other better kits if you want.
I do use the API kits, but I did have the LFS run the tests and they came back with the same values.
 
Top Shelf Aquatics

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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the main issue here is the lfs is using dated, old cycling science and it always leads back to a new purchase

what they interpret from no TAN conversion api readings was taught to them by someone else using old vs new cycling science.
(your nh3 form ammonia is reading .025, not .25, specifically that's the safe zone per instructions. LFS employees do not relay TAN conversions you have to get that info from chemists like Randy/Dan/Taricha etc)



LFS actually don't mean it in a bad way, they too were trained using the old assessment means.


nowadays, we use updated cycling science which is how for twenty years they've been able to arrange 400 reefs to all start by a given friday in MACNA and other reef conventions.

that means new cycling science has always existed, its not just practiced by LFS's or forums, its practiced by sellers at reef conventions though who never miss a start date for a full blown reef, and it can carry fifty thousand dollars in animals for as many years as you want to run it.

that the reef convention only lasts 5 days means nothing about the cycle; old cycling science would disagree though they would say a reef convention cycle will expire soon and thats why they never get anything timely in old cycling analysis threads. all folks using old cycling science can not participate in a reef convention, nitrite compliance alone might take up to three months and the convention will have started and stopped by then eight times over.

one funny thing about LFS though, an inherent conflict: they use updated cycling science every day whether its perceived or not...they receive items from shipping that can't die or they'll lose money... they add this life into systems that instantly handle the bioload without dying, or needing time to bring up more bacteria, some corals and rocks and fish stay there long enough to adhere onto the frag tank walls (proves that quick cycles aren't going to expire anytime soon) and they're also able to re-pack the animals and rocks and give to buyers to move home without any losses etc.


skip cycling is part of a LFS daily life, but they dont know how original cycling works at all

I've never met a LFS employee who teaches new cycling science to potential buyers, it would greatly reduce their bottle bac sales to do so.

you are cycled and ready because 100% of any form of boosting is ready at week 4, a cycle chart proves it. The fritz made your tank able to carry bioload on day one, waiting 4 weeks added no benefit. your reef could have easily met the start date for a convention, we narrowed your bioload carry date down to day 1 not day 30, that's why you paid so much for Fritz vs the other bacteria. not any test param you or the LFS may find will change the known safe start date for this tank using updated cycling science.
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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one of the best things you could do with this thread is to email it on facebook to your lfs, have them read it, and lemme see their follow up response.
 
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xtremethings

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If they are using API too then that is likely your issue, API is simply inaccurate and provides these false numbers more often then not.

The only way you would have ammonia and nitrite rising is if something was decomposing.
That makes sense, but I saw a thread somewhere that mentioned that CaribSea’s Arag-Alive sand could cause some strange values during a cycle.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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agreed, the Brightwell site says specifically not to use that sand with their bacteria, but its false. you sure can use it in combo with any cycling bac you like.



lfs's also make use of updated cycling science each day because they dont repeatedly dose expensive fritz into their holding systems with every new shipment of animals that increases bioloading. they just dump in the animals.


the buying public is who gets trained to input bottle bac for every possible step and restep in reefing.

if your LFS could read this thread we might get a neat response or even a new sign in reader out of the link from an employee. u should let em see claims here, facebook em to us.
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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how to make use of updated cycling science for your specific tank:

cease testing for nitrite and ammonia for the life of the tank, they can't drift out of spec. those are cycling params and your cycle is done due to rules about # of days underwater compared to a common cycling chart.


your total focus should be on reading the fish disease forum for two hours, to discern how you're going to add fish into a tank ready to carry fish.

there is only one cause for ammonia noncontrol in a reef post-cycle, as yours is...and that's fish group loss due to disease.


ammonia never creeps up and causes fish loss, in 100% of cases a form of fish loss compounded and drove up ammonia. having an ammonia test kit cannot test for fish disease or poisoning events or hardware crashes, ammonia testing only verifies that you have dead fish and no kit is required to know that.

a second thing LFS's do conveniently well: sell you, then re sell you, diseased fish.

must learn the fish disease forum before proceeding.
 
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xtremethings

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the main issue here is the lfs is using dated, old cycling science and it always leads back to a new purchase

what they interpret from no TAN conversion api readings was taught to them by someone else using old vs new cycling science.
(your nh3 form ammonia is reading .025, not .25, specifically that's the safe zone per instructions. LFS employees do not relay TAN conversions you have to get that info from chemists like Randy/Dan/Taricha etc)



LFS actually don't mean it in a bad way, they too were trained using the old assessment means.


nowadays, we use updated cycling science which is how for twenty years they've been able to arrange 400 reefs to all start by a given friday in MACNA and other reef conventions.

that means new cycling science has always existed, its not just practiced by LFS's or forums, its practiced by sellers at reef conventions though who never miss a start date for a full blown reef, and it can carry fifty thousand dollars in animals for as many years as you want to run it.

that the reef convention only lasts 5 days means nothing about the cycle; old cycling science would disagree though they would say a reef convention cycle will expire soon and thats why they never get anything timely in old cycling analysis threads. all folks using old cycling science can not participate in a reef convention, nitrite compliance alone might take up to three months and the convention will have started and stopped by then eight times over.

one funny thing about LFS though, an inherent conflict: they use updated cycling science every day whether its perceived or not...they receive items from shipping that can't die or they'll lose money... they add this life into systems that instantly handle the bioload without dying, or needing time to bring up more bacteria, some corals and rocks and fish stay there long enough to adhere onto the frag tank walls (proves that quick cycles aren't going to expire anytime soon) and they're also able to re-pack the animals and rocks and give to buyers to move home without any losses etc.


skip cycling is part of a LFS daily life, but they dont know how original cycling works at all

I've never met a LFS employee who teaches new cycling science to potential buyers, it would greatly reduce their bottle bac sales to do so.

you are cycled and ready because 100% of any form of boosting is ready at week 4, a cycle chart proves it. The fritz made your tank able to carry bioload on day one, waiting 4 weeks added no benefit. your reef could have easily met the start date for a convention, we narrowed your bioload carry date down to day 1 not day 30, that's why you paid so much for Fritz vs the other bacteria. not any test param you or the LFS may find will change the known safe start date for this tank using updated cycling science.
Great information! I just looked up some sites on the topic and it looks like free NH3 is the main concern and the available calculators due show it’ is significantly lower than the combined.

The 20 ppm nitrate is higher than most people would like to see, but I’m thinking the clowns I'm looking to relocate will do just fine. The tank they’re currently is testing right around the same values as the new tank, so maybe it’s time to move them over.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Agreed fully. It's also possible that nitrite isn't quite ready and that will boost up nitrate readings falsely but this doesn't impact updated cycling science whatsoever: nitrite is neutral in all cases, totally harmless in reefing (yet totally harmful in freshwater tanks, we got lucky here as salties) and we don't care at all what nitrate reads for the first several months in a new reef tank, however it lands is fine (common early nitrite issues will boost up nitrate readings falsely, but we didnt need to know your nitrate either)

Solely fish disease preps matter now in preserving the fish bioload.
 
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Best way to cycle tank is don't use bateria in bottle save money but a 2 dollar shrimp at store and throw in tank for a few weeks done .or if you live a few hrs away from ocean even brown ocean water has the best bacteria in it go there get as much as you can put in tank .the tank will clear up but you will have to change filter socks every day till water is clear .Tank cycled
 

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