Fishless cycling day 2 (testing readings huh?)

[tankstudy]

Next time, dr Tim’s one and only and a fish. Then patience. Lol

Yeah, this route is usually the easier one. You don't have to understand much about optimal conditions and inhibition points. The cons of the fish technique though is that it takes longer to cycle but it's friendlier to those who don't know much about the science behind what's happening.

However, once you figure out how to dose ammonia with bottled bacteria the first time, it's a breeze and very convenient when you need to setup emergency tanks for UNEXPECTED FRAGS...lol... or tank blowouts.

 

[LeftyReefer]

When I used AC to dose my tank, I too was worried about over-dosing, so I only used 2 drops per gallon and then tested.
Test results showed 1ppm ammonia.

Second time I dosed, I used 4 drops per gallon then tested. showed 2 ppm.

So at least for me, the directions on the bottle proved to be spot on.

I agree that it is better to use too little than too much.

I too was needing to dose hundreds of drops, but it really isn't that hard/bad to do. I think I just did it in like 20-30 drops at a time, just kept track on a note pad as I did it. I too thought about using spoons, etc.. but was too worried I'd use too much, so I just counted drops. It isn't that bad.

 

[Trever]

So for those who might happen along here (and re above, I don't know why people are talking as if I haven't used Dr. Tim's, that's exactly what I'm using):

I figured out that using Dr. Tim's ammonium chloride bottle dropper, 20 drops is 1 ml, pretty much exactly. So today (Day 3) I know that I added the equivalent of 4 drops per gallon, as Dr. Tim's instructions say to do (I had essentially no ammonium and no or .01 nitrites, hard to say). Whether it was easier to use the syringe vs. just standing there and counting 152 drops, I dunno.

I still say the ammonium chloride should ship with some far easier mechanism to add it. I used to teach AP Chemistry 20 years ago, that doesn't mean I can or want to revisit converting stated concentrations to some useful way of adding this stuff to a mere 38 gallons of water.

Anywho... will measure my ammonium now (and 24 hours from now), just to see what the Salifert test kit looks like when I know there should be about 2 PPM ammonium in there. I don't think Dr. Tim's bacteria will have converted it in 10 minutes... or will it?

 

[Trever]

The Salifert Ammonia test kit reads somewhere between .5 and 1, which I assume is PPM. That's about 15 minutes after adding the Dr. Tim's Ammonia.

Either that or my tank is full of semen, because it kind of looks like that too in the vial.

In other words, it's ridiculously hard to read that thing IMO, I don't think this particular Salifert test kit (ie. for ammonia) is worth anything, frankly. The others (Salifert) I find a lot easier to read. Oh well. For sure there's a higher indication of something than when I tested for ammonia 24 hours after adding ammonia the first time.

So some sort of digestion is taking place in my tank, yay.

Perhaps I'll have to start a different thread but a separate question (I need to google) is how to feed the bacteria? We are likely to go out of town, or my first fish will still be in quarantine, before I add the fish. So theoretically the tank will finish cycling quit a bit before I can add fish. My understanding is that under these circumstances, the bacteria can die or at least require "reactivation" if I don't add ammonia periodically (or food, but I don't think I want to do that because that's not "pure" ammonia).

 

[LeftyReefer]

Not true. The bacteria will not die, it will be just fine will you are away on vacation. I would not add anything before you leave, personally.

 

[K7BMG]

So for those who might happen along here (and re above, I don't know why people are talking as if I haven't used Dr. Tim's, that's exactly what I'm using):

I figured out that using Dr. Tim's ammonium chloride bottle dropper, 20 drops is 1 ml, pretty much exactly. So today (Day 3) I know that I added the equivalent of 4 drops per gallon, as Dr. Tim's instructions say to do (I had essentially no ammonium and no or .01 nitrites, hard to say). Whether it was easier to use the syringe vs. just standing there and counting 152 drops, I dunno.

I still say the ammonium chloride should ship with some far easier mechanism to add it. I used to teach AP Chemistry 20 years ago, that doesn't mean I can or want to revisit converting stated concentrations to some useful way of adding this stuff to a mere 38 gallons of water.

Anywho... will measure my ammonium now (and 24 hours from now), just to see what the Salifert test kit looks like when I know there should be about 2 PPM ammonium in there. I don't think Dr. Tim's bacteria will have converted it in 10 minutes... or will it?

I doubt it will show significant change in 10 min. LoL, but it could in 24 hours.

I know I am in the minority on this tread with my hap hazard approach here.
But this to me is a hobby and if I needed a doctorate in chemistry and lab grade equipment to get exacting precision measurements then I would never want a reef tank.
I think the majority feel the same.

I appreciate the the diligent hard work and efforts to the ones who take this to that level of accuracy and concentration. If it were not for these folks we all would have other hobbies as the reef tank would be an impossible task.
This level of or type of personality is why we humans have everything we have.

All I am saying is that if you added 6 drops per gallon VS the directed 4 this will not be a catastrophe leading to the death of the tank, or the bacteria.
Yes it may alter the time line of the cycle but it will happen none the less, and the end result will be the same, a fully cycled tank, ready for livestock.

I doubt you will need to continue to add ammonia unless your going to be gone for a few months. The initial dose will be sufficient. This is my hap hazard opinion though.

Raise of hands here on the folks that are reading this and have thrown a pile of dry rock into a brute trash can with saltwater, heater, a frozen shrimp or two and a bottle of their favorite bacteria, closed it up and 6-8 weeks later no testing no additional feedings, had fully cured rock with mass amounts of beneficial bacteria.
Pull the rock from the can, put it into the DT with fresh saltwater wait 24 hours test parameters and find a problem that they could not add the first fish or two?

I can raise two hands as I have done this method successfully twice now.

Please know that I am not belittling the people who know a heck of a lot more than I do on this subject.
I know and understand that everything they say is accurate information and hard earned and learned information.
These are the folks that have led us to the current knowledge and ability to have these tanks in the first place.

My tank here is a result of a hap hazard cycled tank.
With just the rock, crushed coral, two frozen jumbo shrimp, and both a bottle of Dr Tims and BioSpira. added everything at the same time.
Tested Ammonia after three days and it popped positive at around 1- 2 ppm.
Pulled the shrimp carcasses and waited.
Two and a half weeks later tested for Ammonia, was roughly 0 and Nitrate was around 30+. Never tested for Nitrite once. Did a full 75% water change waited 24 hours tested Nitrate at around 10ppm.
Added three fish and here I am today.

Everything has grown in size, and the fish are healthy and happy.

 

[tankstudy]

The Salifert Ammonia test kit reads somewhere between .5 and 1, which I assume is PPM. That's about 15 minutes after adding the Dr. Tim's Ammonia.

Either that or my tank is full of semen, because it kind of looks like that too in the vial.

In other words, it's ridiculously hard to read that thing IMO, I don't think this particular Salifert test kit (ie. for ammonia) is worth anything, frankly. The others (Salifert) I find a lot easier to read. Oh well. For sure there's a higher indication of something than when I tested for ammonia 24 hours after adding ammonia the first time.

So some sort of digestion is taking place in my tank, yay.

Perhaps I'll have to start a different thread but a separate question (I need to google) is how to feed the bacteria? We are likely to go out of town, or my first fish will still be in quarantine, before I add the fish. So theoretically the tank will finish cycling quit a bit before I can add fish. My understanding is that under these circumstances, the bacteria can die or at least require "reactivation" if I don't add ammonia periodically (or food, but I don't think I want to do that because that's not "pure" ammonia).

Most kits I know will read it out in PPM.

You don't have to worry about feeding them. Keep in mind that when they die too, they become a food source for themselves.

The population will drop drastically over time, like many many many weeks if not months, if left alone but if your going out of town for just a few weeks, its nothing to be concerned about. A lot of the bottled bacteria we buy sometimes sit on the shelves for weeks at a time before being purchased by hobbyists.

 

[Trever]

1.
Do people just follow this Dr. Tim's recipe and add fish on Day 9?

Today was Day 6, third time I've added ammonia.

Before I added it, I couldn't tell if I have 0 or 1.5 PPM ammonia (Salifert test kit). Yesterday had .05 - .1 nitrites (Salifert).

My wife says it looks like .5 PPM Ammonia to her. I find that a more persuasive interpretation once someone else says that.

So I guess let's suppose my ammonia is .5 PPM.

After adding ammonia, I tested ammonia 1 hour later and the reading is the same as before adding it (I have my pump and powerhead on to circulate water).

Again, I find the salifert ammonia test kit to be of limited or no value, if for no other reason that it is so difficult to interpret.

So possibly in two days I will be (and possibly I already am) below .5 PPM on both Ammonia and Nitrite in which case the recipe says go ahead and add fish two days from now, assuming readings don't become higher.

I'm planning to send in the clowns and would hate to burn my first fishies!

2.
If I want to cycle longer, I don't see info on how to do that. Especially if per above, I don't want to add my first fish several days before we go out of town for 4 days (yes I could have planned the start of the cycle better but in reality, I needed to get this tank going because it was becoming endlessly delayed).

3.
My LFS does say that if I just stop cycling and don't add fish, it can kill the cycle. The woman there is well known in the industry and locally. She knows what she's talking about (our other LFS's in this area are a joke).

 

[Trever]

I don't know how accurate the SeaChem Ammonia Badge alerts are, but I put one in the sump just now. It's intended for a quarantine tank but I see no reason I can't use it in my current unpopulated tank as an additional attempt to get a handle on what the ammonia level is (after adding 2 PPM a few hours ago). It can always be moved to the quarantine/hospital tank if needed there (wouldn't want to move it back to the tank after being in a "sick" tank though). Will see what that says over time. Right now it says "Alert .05 PPM", which it seems to me is not bad, but apparently it takes awhile to equilibrate.

I've read something about how you can't compared the readings (PPM) on these things with something like the Salifert ammonia test because they are measuring different ions/things, but both attempt to indicate if there's toxic or ominous ammonia levels in the tank.

 

[Trever]

Day 7

Measured Nitrates for first time.

25 PPM

This (I think) means my tank is processing what would appear to be excess ammonia on thru and thus is done cycling as soon as the ammonia levels drop down?

 

[GBRsouth]

Day 7

Measured Nitrates for first time.

25 PPM

This (I think) means my tank is processing what would appear to be excess ammonia on thru and thus is done cycling as soon as the ammonia levels drop down?

All good, just test ammonia level before adding a fish. If you can get 25ppm nitrate your bacteria levels are where they need to be.