Fishless nano tank question

notyoungk · Apr 5, 2021

Hello everyone! Long time reader, first time post-er.

My question is: Is there a way to make sure my tank is actually cycling right now so I don't wait 4-6 weeks (like I've read) before adding any corals just to find out that the tank has been doing nothing this entire time.

I don't have any livestock and don't plan to add any. I didn't use any chemical to start the cycle such as Dr. Tim's One and Only. Is the live rock from the LFS and the live sand enough to start the cycle on its own?

After a very long break from having a fish tank, (7 years?), my wife finally caved and let me back into the hobby. Currently, I'm 1 week in the cycling process and I just tested the water so see if anything is happening. It's hard to tell with this API Saltwater Test Kit, but from the looks of the chart and colors, it seems like it could be:

8.0-8.2 pH~
0 ppm Nitrite
Ammonia looks like it could be anywhere from 0.25ppm to 0.50ppm based on the color of the test
The color of the Nitrate liquid looks like it could be anywhere from 0ppm to 10ppm.

The setup is a 10 gallon tank with a Aquaclear 70 filled with Fluval media, heater and waiting on a surface skimmer attachment. Lights have been off. 5 pounds of live sand by CaribSea. 10 pounds of live rock from LFS. Don't know what kind it was, but it was priced at $7.99 a pound.

The filter media is Fluval biomax, Fluval clearmax phosphate remover, Fluval biofoam, and Fluval ultragrade carbon.

From various things that I've read, I'm planning to change the filter media on the next change out to Chemi-pure Blue, Matrix Seachem, and add Kalk+2.

My plans are to just have corals and little to no fish, however, if there's corals and/or fish you'd recommend keeping in a nano tank, I'd love to hear it!

Any help, advice, recommendations/suggestions are all incredibly appreciated. Links to great resources are always welcome also!

Thanks in advance everyone!

Jekyl · Apr 5, 2021

If you used established wet live rock from the LFS then there will be no cycle. You would have to be feeding the tank to see nitrate. As far as the ammonia test it looks like the same readings we always see from API. I could be wrong though. There could be die off from the rock transfer

Azedenkae · Apr 5, 2021

notyoungk said:
My question is: Is there a way to make sure my tank is actually cycling right now so I don't wait 4-6 weeks (like I've read) before adding any corals just to find out that the tank has been doing nothing this entire time. I don't have any livestock and don't plan to add any. I didn't use any chemical to start the cycle such as Dr. Tim's One and Only. Is the live rock from the LFS and the live sand enough to start the cycle on its own?

Yo. Yes, depending on your method of cycling, there is a way to check (and you should check, patience is important but unnecessary waits are not). For me, it is dosing ammonia and seeing if there is any oxidation of that ammonia to nitrite. If there is, sweet. That means it is moving. Once the nitrifiers can oxidize 2 ppm ammonia to nitrate within 24 hours, to me that is perfect and the tank is cycled. Other people have different definitions for what cycling is and hence will have different suggestions.

Also yes, live rock and live sand should contain the microbes you'd need. *Should*, but not always - or at least sometimes it takes a long time. Alternatively, you might already be cycled.

notyoungk said:
8.0-8.2 pH~

0 ppm Nitrite
Ammonia looks like it could be anywhere from 0.25ppm to 0.50ppm based on the color of the test
The color of the Nitrate liquid looks like it could be anywhere from 0ppm to 10ppm.

So you probably had some ammonia generated from somewhere, and there is nitrate, indicating there is some conversion of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. But really, that's a bit low of ammonia to really see how well your nitrifiers are handling ammonia.

notyoungk said:
From various things that I've read, I'm planning to change the filter media on the next change out to Chemi-pure Blue, Matrix Seachem, and add Kalk+2.

If you are gonna swap over to Seachem Matrix, do it now.

Jekyl · Apr 5, 2021

If you used dry rock then ammonia of some sort will need to be dosed to start the cycling process.

notyoungk · Apr 5, 2021

Azedenkae said:
Yo. Yes, depending on your method of cycling, there is a way to check (and you should check, patience is important but unnecessary waits are not). For me, it is dosing ammonia and seeing if there is any oxidation of that ammonia to nitrite. If there is, sweet. That means it is moving. Once the nitrifiers can oxidize 2 ppm ammonia to nitrate within 24 hours, to me that is perfect and the tank is cycled. Other people have different definitions for what cycling is and hence will have different suggestions.

Also yes, live rock and live sand should contain the microbes you'd need. *Should*, but not always - or at least sometimes it takes a long time. Alternatively, you might already be cycled.

So you probably had some ammonia generated from somewhere, and there is nitrate, indicating there is some conversion of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. But really, that's a bit low of ammonia to really see how well your nitrifiers are handling ammonia.

If you are gonna swap over to Seachem Matrix, do it now.

Okay, so I'm still a tiny bit confused and just want to make sure.

There's a chance the tank is already cycled and ready to add corals already even though it's only been a week?
Or, there's a chance that the tank has not cycled at all and the ammonia test from API could be giving a bad reading?

It sounds like based on my current situation, I should dose some ammonia, test tomorrow and gauge the results right?

Also, I'll order the Seachem Matrix now. Lol.

Jekyl · Apr 5, 2021

notyoungk said:
Okay, so I'm still a tiny bit confused and just want to make sure.

There's a chance the tank is already cycled and ready to add corals already even though it's only been a week?
Or, there's a chance that the tank has not cycled at all and the ammonia test from API could be giving a bad reading?

It sounds like based on my current situation, I should dose some ammonia, test tomorrow and gauge the results right?

Also, I'll order the Seachem Matrix now. Lol.

It's always best to be sure and take things slow. However if all of the rock you added was already established with coraline and such and kept wet to prevent die off. Then you already have the bacteria that you're waiting to grow.

Azedenkae · Apr 5, 2021

notyoungk said:
Okay, so I'm still a tiny bit confused and just want to make sure.

There's a chance the tank is already cycled and ready to add corals already even though it's only been a week?
Or, there's a chance that the tank has not cycled at all and the ammonia test from API could be giving a bad reading?

It sounds like based on my current situation, I should dose some ammonia, test tomorrow and gauge the results right?

Also, I'll order the Seachem Matrix now. Lol.

Presuming you did the test correctly (shook the bottles vigorously, shook the vial in between adding each solution, etc.), I highly doubt that API is giving you a bad reading. I used the API ammonia test kit extensively and recently took to very carefully testing it and it has not failed me. I asked the question a while back, and seems like the main issue people have is that over time it becomes more inaccurate, though that could probably be checked with just a stock ammonia solution you can test against.

Now, to answer your cycling question. I consider a tank cycled when it can process 2ppm ammonia to nitrates completely in 24 hours. If you dose 2ppm ammonia and measure 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite in 24 hours, you are cycled in my book. Or maybe 0.25ppm ammonia, some people have trouble measuring actual 0 ammonia. Either way.

Separately, since you started with live rock and live sand, your tank may be already cycled. The live rock and sand may contain all the necessary nitrifiers from the get go. I mean if you are measuring 0.5ppm ammonia though, does not seem like it, but could just be a bit hard telling the color perhaps. I mean yeah okay, that is a downside with the API test kit, still does not mean it gives a false reading though.

Just to be clear, nitrite is actually not that big of a deal for marine fish, it needs to be super duper high to show toxicity. However, I personally just like to have both ammonia and nitrite to be processed fully, because well, better safe than sorry. There is a very low chance that nitrite oxidizers just develop so slowly that your nitrite can actually climb to an unsafe level. Low, but possible imo.

Anyways, if you can get your tank to process 2ppm ammonia a day btw, you don't really need to switch over to Seachem Matrix. When people say biomedia is 'better' or 'worse', that generally refers to how much nitrifiers they can host and thus how much of it is actually needed in a tank. But whether you use a lot or a little biomedia, if your nitrifiers can take care of the ammonia they need to, then eh. Some people run no other biomedia other than live rock or live sand (technically both are biomedia) and that works too.

PR_nano · Apr 5, 2021

Yes API is notorious for giving bad ammonia reading. Did you ran Dr Tim and dose ammonia per the instructions? If so it's possible to cycle in 7-10 days.

Day 1 - dose ammonia to 2 ppm ammonia-nitrogen [NH3-N] using our ammonium chloride (1 drop per gallon [After Nov 2016 when using DrTim's ammonium chloride use 4 drops per gallon]) [NOTE: do not expect your test kit to exactly read 2 ppm and it is not critical to get exactly 2 ppm. The key is to not add too much ammonia]. If using DrTim's Aquatics One & Only Live Nitrifying bacteria add it now (turn skimmer, UV and ozone off and remove filter socks for 48 hours).
Day 2 - Measure ammonia and nitrite.
Day 3 - If ammonia and nitrite are below 1 ppm add more ammonia: four drops of our ammonium chloride per gallon (check the label).
Days 4 & 5 - Measure ammonia and nitrite.
Day 6 - If ammonia and nitrite are below 1 ppm add 2 ppm ammonia. Four drops of our ammonium chloride per gallon. [NOTE: since you have added the One & Only your ammonia kit will not read 2 ppm and DO NOT continue adding ammonia trying to get to 2 ppm - just add 2 ppm ammonia (4 drops per gallon of our ammonium chloride) and carry-on.
Days 7 & 8 - Measure ammonia and nitrite. On the first measurement day (Day 2, 4, 5, 7 or 8) that BOTH ammonia and nitrite are both below 0.5 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N) your tank is close to being cycled.
Now start to measure ammonia and nitrite every day.
When BOTH ammonia and nitrite are below 0.2 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N), add another 2 ppm ammonia.
Continue to measure every day. When you can add 2 ppm ammonia and BOTH ammonia and nitrite are below 0.2 ppm (NH3-N or NO2-N) the next day your tank is cycled - congrats! You're done!

As suggested above you can dose the 2ppm ammonia and see if it gets converted in the 24hours.

brandon429 · Apr 5, 2021

its easy to make this a no test rock transfer.

select live rock from a pet store you know wasn't recently submerged.

move to your tank

skip cycled, done, nothing can go wrong, so nothing to test, nothing can die off in the move it will not occur. easy~

brandon429 · Apr 5, 2021

proof:
a whole thread devoted to it. we would not dose ammonia to these rocks, that's opposite of how to conduct a skip cycle, there's nothing to verify. we dose ammonia to dry rock skip cycles, to see if they're ready. this is an opposite type of cycle with known live bacteria. wet equals live bacteria, humans didn't have to pay for a dosage for them and feed them, we don't control water bac all that well as humans.

A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

THE GOLDEN EXAMPLE OF A SKIP CYCLE DAY 1 REEF https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/octo-high-end-sps-skip-cycle-build.713256/ read that entire thread before you read ours. that's the heart of skip cycling. Everything we do going forward in this thread reflects on that ability above, in the #1...

www.reef2reef.com

brandon429 · Apr 5, 2021

the rocks hold their cycle as long as you want, if they're wet. no feeding required, the bac can't die off if we don't feed. they're still feeding. all set here. (the feed is the attached organic slicks inherent to all live rock and then natural vector inputs, from the air, all this breaks down into trace feed)

notyoungk · Apr 5, 2021

Everyone, thank you so much! This cleared up a lot of little mini questions that I've had. I boodmarked the thread brandon429 shared. I'll take some time to read through that now. Thank you again!