Flame angel and copper power in qt

[Eag808]

Hi, I have a flame angel in qt, I wanted to get him eating before putting any medicine, it’s been a couple days since he’s been eating so decided to add copper power to address the few white spots on his fins and body which I assumed was ich, 5-10 mins later he started acting weird shaking head / swimming on side. Should I take him out? I would have to acclimate him to another tank and don’t know if the added stress will be good. But also don’t want the copper to kill him what do you guys think? He was perfectly fine before the copper and I only did about a 75% dose

 

[Eag808]

Hi, I have a flame angel in qt, I wanted to get him eating before putting any medicine, it’s been a couple days since he’s been eating so decided to add copper power to address the few white spots on his fins and body which I assumed was ich, 5-10 mins later he started acting weird shaking head / swimming on side. Should I take him out? I would have to acclimate him to another tank and don’t know if the added stress will be good. But also don’t want the copper to kill him what do you guys think? He was perfectly fine before the copper and I only did about a 75% dose

@Jay Hemdal you seem like the resident expert what do you think I should do?

 

[mmorriso]

You should remove the copper urgently, using cuprasorb or a large water change.

Flame angels are very sensitive to copper. Tank transfer or hyposalinity are better options. There’s a very high chance a flame angel would not survive a copper course capable of treating ich.

 

[Eag808]

You should remove the copper urgently, using cuprasorb or a large water change.

Flame angels are very sensitive to copper. Tank transfer or hyposalinity are better options. There’s a very high chance a flame angel would not survive a copper course capable of treating ich.

I don’t have enough water on hand to do a large water change and I’m running carbon now to absorb some of the copper. Do you think I should just remove the flame angel now for the night?

 

[mmorriso]

I know multiple reefers who have lost Flame Angels to very minor doses of copper. It has happened so often to people I have direct contact with that I am comfortable stating that for Flame Angels specifically, there’s no ailment that is potentially treatable by copper, generally, that is actually worse than copper itself.

 

[mmorriso]

I don’t have enough water on hand to do a large water change and I’m running carbon now to absorb some of the copper. Do you think I should just remove the flame angel now for the night?

Yes, it’s unlikely he’d last the night at 70% therapeutic level, in my experience.

 

[Eag808]

Here’s a video

 

[vetteguy53081]

Copper power is a little milder than copper HOWEVER, did you buy chance monitor the copper level?
When dosing any form of copper- HAVING A RELIABLE COPPER KIT IS A MUST AND STAY AWAY FROM API KITS.

If so, what is your copper level? Sounds like it may have received too much copper. Copper is in essence a poison and can be lethal when applied at high concentration. I myself tend to dose at 80% of recommended

 

[vetteguy53081]

Here’s a video

Unfortunately when a fish reaches this point, the damage has been done and in all honesty- chance for recovery is greatly reduced. Wish i could say something more positive/encouraging

Another curiosity- How old is your tank and how are you testing water quality (type of test kits? )

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal you seem like the resident expert what do you think I should do?

Properly done, copper power won't cause that sort of issue, even with a flame angel. I've had problems with Centropyge angels and copper/citric acid, but never copper power or copper safe. All I can tell you is that there is either something else going on, or you miscalculated the copper dose. Did you measure the copper level?

Jay

 

[mmorriso]

Here’s a video

Unfortunately, I have seen this many times at this point and I don't like his chances. The internet would indicate that many reefers have successfully treated Flame Angels in copper, however this has not been my experience.

 

[Eag808]

Copper power is a little milder than copper HOWEVER, did you buy chance monitor the copper level?
When dosing any form of copper- HAVING A RELIABLE COPPER KIT IS A MUST AND STAY AWAY FROM API KITS.

If so, what is your copper level? Sounds like it may have received too much copper. Copper is in essence a poison and can be lethal when applied at high concentration. I myself tend to dose at 80% of recommended

Properly done, copper power won't cause that sort of issue, even with a flame angel. I've had problems with Centropyge angels and copper/citric acid, but never copper power or copper safe. All I can tell you is that there is either something else going on, or you miscalculated the copper dose. Did you measure the copper level?

Jay

The flame was fine before adding the copper power, literally 10 minutes after adding is when he started acting weird. Bottle says one fluid once per 20 gallons the qt is 29 gallon and I only added one ounce

 

[mmorriso]

Properly done, copper power won't cause that sort of issue, even with a flame angel. I've had problems with Centropyge angels and copper/citric acid, but never copper power or copper safe. All I can tell you is that there is either something else going on, or you miscalculated the copper dose. Did you measure the copper level?

Jay

This has always been a bit of a mystery to me.

There are a large number of reports of successful copper treatment for Dwarf Angels on the internet and Flame Angels specifically.

In my local circle of reefers, copper has been a guaranteed death sentence for Flame Angels, amongst reefers who regularly treat with copper and are experienced and responsible in its use.

I've often wondered if there's a more complex interaction for this species, such as them being particularly sensitive to the degree to which copper increases, rather than the absolute amount within the water.

 

[Eag808]

He’s looking slightly better. I think when I added the copper power it didn’t dissipate fast enough (even though I poured it in pretty slow) so maybe there was a concentrated amount that he swam through. And I read mixed reviews about flame angels and copper but I thought copper power was easier on fish so thought I would give it a shot. Looking back now I should’ve maybe added it over the course of a few days or went with a different method of trying rid him
of ich

 

[mmorriso]

The flame was fine before adding the copper power, literally 10 minutes after adding is when he started acting weird. Bottle says one fluid once per 20 gallons the qt is 29 gallon and I only added one ounce

This specific breed of fish has a reputation to being sensitive to copper, both changes in level of copper and absolute level of copper.

While having test kits on hand to confirm the level of copper is best practice, that's not to say you made a mistake in your dosing. Having a test kit just lets you know for sure, especially if there's anything in your tank that could potentially absorb copper (Sand, rock or other media) as the dosing instructions can't account for this.

If you have another system without copper, I'd move the fish into that immediately, assuming it's also a QT environment which you can sterilise for ich later on.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

This has always been a bit of a mystery to me.

There are a large number of reports of successful copper treatment for Dwarf Angels on the internet and Flame Angels specifically.

In my local circle of reefers, copper has been a guaranteed death sentence for Flame Angels, amongst reefers who regularly treat with copper and are experienced and responsible in its use.

I've often wondered if there's a more complex interaction for this species, such as them being particularly sensitive to the degree to which copper increases, rather than the absolute amount within the water.

In this case, the reaction was acute. Copper toxicity is more chronic. I think in this case it was either mis-dosed, or something else happened at the same time.
Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

The flame was fine before adding the copper power, literally 10 minutes after adding is when he started acting weird. Bottle says one fluid once per 20 gallons the qt is 29 gallon and I only added one ounce

Yes, you did it correctly.

 

[vetteguy53081]

He’s looking slightly better. I think when I added the copper power it didn’t dissipate fast enough (even though I poured it in pretty slow) so maybe there was a concentrated amount that he swam through. And I read mixed reviews about flame angels and copper but I thought copper power was easier on fish so thought I would give it a shot. Looking back now I should’ve maybe added it over the course of a few days or went with a different method of trying rid him
of ich

Either that or I recommend slowly to the sump to be disbursed evenly. Glad to hear it is coming around

 

[Eag808]

He looked a lot better a hour or so after his initial symptoms, dropped food in and he ate everything and seemed fine this morning I also posted the same video on a reef page on Facebook and half the people said copper and flame angels is fine and the other half said don’t do it, I’m guess I’m going to continue it now that the flame doesn’t seemed stressed and see how my experience is with it. Thank you guys for all your input!!