Flame Angel Heavily Breathing

[Teku1998]

Can anyone help me out? Our beloved flame angel doesnt appear to be very healthy. He started breathing very rapidly last night and hid under that cave. He didn’t appear to have moved by morning, and was still in there not moving much when I left for work.

We had been dosing Korean Ich Attack herbal ich treatment because we saw white spots - they’re 99% gone now after a week. And only 1/5 of the other fish had any spots. The rest are all doing great and exhibiting no weird behaviors as of now.

Tank is cycled with confirmed 0 ammonia last night, and 10 nitrate. Salinity has been locked at 1.0265 since before we got the fish. We use RODI water. Temp is a steady 78. Ph is steady at 7.9 for several weeks. The tank is 4 months old. No corals are in the tank minus a GSP frag.

The surface of the water is moving well - and our hydor pump is moving the tank water pretty well as usual.

Any ideas? Please help!!! TIA feel free to ask questions. I tried to cover everything I’ve already researched.

 

[MnFish1]

@Jay Hemdal will probably weigh in. As will others. How long have you had the fish? What do you feed? what do you think caused the outbreak (did you add something new recently, etc) Assuming its Cryptokaryon - as compared to velvet - or something else - I'm not sure there is any good evidence that a herbal remedy will help (probably won't hurt) - and sometimes fish die from CI depending on their underlying condition/age, etc. If its velvet - that tends to be more dangerous. From the picture its impossible to tell.

The usual thing to do would be to remove the fish (all of them) - and treat with a medication such as copper. And leave the display tank without fish for 2.5 months. Other thinking would be feed the fish well and hope it gets better.

I guess my questions would be:

1. Did you make a recent new addition?
2. How old is the fish?
3. what do you feed?
4. Have your fish had white spots intermittently before
5. Has there been any recent stressful event.

Lastly - he looks like a pretty fish - I hope you get some more help here! Good luck

 

[Teku1998]

@Jay Hemdal will probably weigh in. As will others. How long have you had the fish? What do you feed? what do you think caused the outbreak (did you add something new recently, etc) Assuming its Cryptokaryon - as compared to velvet - or something else - I'm not sure there is any good evidence that a herbal remedy will help (probably won't hurt) - and sometimes fish die from CI depending on their underlying condition/age, etc. If its velvet - that tends to be more dangerous. From the picture its impossible to tell.

The usual thing to do would be to remove the fish (all of them) - and treat with a medication such as copper. And leave the display tank without fish for 2.5 months. Other thinking would be feed the fish well and hope it gets better.

I guess my questions would be:

1. Did you make a recent new addition?
2. How old is the fish?
3. what do you feed?
4. Have your fish had white spots intermittently before
5. Has there been any recent stressful event.

Lastly - he looks like a pretty fish - I hope you get some more help here! Good luck

1. Did you make a recent new addition? We fed him nori for the first time 2-3 days prior to the notice of his labored breathing. He ate it well and we removed it after.
2. How old is the fish? Unknown, we got him about 2 months ago. I believe he’s younger. From our LFS.
3. what do you feed? Omega one Sinking marine pellets with garlic and mysis daily. Nori was a new addition as mentioned above.
4. Have your fish had white spots intermittently before. No this was our first time. We were away for 9 days and auto fed the pellets solely. Nitrates were higher (20) when I did my water change after getting home but other than the two fish having small white dots on their fins, everyone was normal and eating well. The tank is only 4 months old though so I don’t have a huge history to base it on.
5. Has there been any recent stressful event. Possibly being only fed pellets for 9 days? No parameters swung compared to the leaving and returning days though.

Thank you for the reply. This is my fiancé’s tank and we don’t have much room to setup a bunch of SW tanks right now - were about to move in February also. I have spare tanks (5s and a 20) and equipment isn’t hard to come by with my LFS but cheaper smaller solutions are ideal for us right now.
I decided against moving him to a separate tank last night because in my FW experience moving stressed fish always makes it worse. I’m getting mixed advice on my FB reef groups. I decided to come here because forum people are always more helpful!

 

[MnFish1]

1. Did you make a recent new addition? We fed him nori for the first time 2-3 days prior to the notice of his labored breathing. He ate it well and we removed it after.
2. How old is the fish? Unknown, we got him about 2 months ago. I believe he’s younger. From our LFS.
3. what do you feed? Omega one Sinking marine pellets with garlic and mysis daily. Nori was a new addition as mentioned above.
4. Have your fish had white spots intermittently before. No this was our first time. We were away for 9 days and auto fed the pellets solely. Nitrates were higher (20) when I did my water change after getting home but other than the two fish having small white dots on their fins, everyone was normal and eating well. The tank is only 4 months old though so I don’t have a huge history to base it on.
5. Has there been any recent stressful event. Possibly being only fed pellets for 9 days? No parameters swung compared to the leaving and returning days though.

Thank you for the reply. This is my fiancé’s tank and we don’t have much room to setup a bunch of SW tanks right now - were about to move in February also. I have spare tanks (5s and a 20) and equipment isn’t hard to come by with my LFS but cheaper smaller solutions are ideal for us right now.
I decided against moving him to a separate tank last night because in my FW experience moving stressed fish always makes it worse. I’m getting mixed advice on my FB reef groups. I decided to come here because forum people are always more helpful!

Thanks - In my question - I meant 'any recent fish or invert, etc' additions. I.e. did you buy a new fish or something. Are you pretty sure that the feeder was working? I'm only asking the questions so some of the disease experts will have more to advise you with... @ReefSquad

 

[Teku1998]

Thanks - In my question - I meant 'any recent fish or invert, etc' additions. I.e. did you buy a new fish or something. Are you pretty sure that the feeder was working? I'm only asking the questions so some of the disease experts will have more to advise you with... @ReefSquad

Thanks. Questions are super welcome right now! The latest addition was actually the flame angel IIRC. The feeder worked - we watched the tank with a camera and everyone stayed healthy and happy. Only thing that happened was coralline started growing. There was an excess of pellets on the ground (the auto feeder wasn’t very easy to dial in) that I removed during the water change. No ammonia registered when I tested twice that day.

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks. Questions are super welcome right now! The latest addition was actually the flame angel IIRC. The feeder worked - we watched the tank with a camera and everyone stayed healthy and happy. Only thing that happened was coralline started growing. There was an excess of pellets on the ground (the auto feeder wasn’t very easy to dial in) that I removed during the water change. No ammonia registered when I tested twice that day.

OK - well - the only other thing I can think of is a fresh water dip - but again - I tend to wait things out - and I'm sure the experts I tagged will have more ideas/information. So if I understand correctly - your other fish were fine. Then you added the flame angel - and then the spots occurred on the other fish?

 

[Teku1998]

OK - well - the only other thing I can think of is a fresh water dip - but again - I tend to wait things out - and I'm sure the experts I tagged will have more ideas/information. So if I understand correctly - your other fish were fine. Then you added the flame angel - and then the spots occurred on the other fish?

Sorry my timeline is a little off. They were all coexisting fine for 1.5 months or so - flame angel included. I then went away for 9 days over the holidays. I got back Jan 2, did the cleaning, and then noticed the spots Jan 3. My fiance dosed the ich attack treatment as per the bottle for 5 days Jan 4-9 while I was on a business trip. We fed him nori for the first time as recommended to help him grow healthy I want to say Jan 10. We noticed him doing the heavy breathing last night Jan 14. We have continued the treatment since Jan 4. Turned the skimmer back on today as the spots seemed to clear and we were going to stop it this weekend. Per the bottle you’re supposed to do it 4-5 days after the infection disappears so that was the plan.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry my timeline is a little off. They were all coexisting fine for 1.5 months or so - flame angel included. I then went away for 9 days over the holidays. I got back Jan 2, did the cleaning, and then noticed the spots Jan 3. My fiance dosed the ich attack treatment as per the bottle for 5 days Jan 4-9 while I was on a business trip. We fed him nori for the first time as recommended to help him grow healthy I want to say Jan 10. We noticed him doing the heavy breathing last night Jan 14. We have continued the treatment since Jan 4. Turned the skimmer back on today as the spots seemed to clear and we were going to stop it this weekend. Per the bottle you’re supposed to do it 4-5 days after the infection disappears so that was the plan.

I couldn't get the video to play.

may have missed it, but one bit of very important diagnostic information to know is: does the tank have delicate invertebrates in it, (other than the one frag) and are they thriving? If so, you can immediately rule out all environmental issues...leaving some fish disease problem. Rapid breathing with no other symptoms means gill disease: could be velvet, or less likely flukes or bacteria.

Jay

 

[Teku1998]

I couldn't get the video to play.

may have missed it, but one bit of very important diagnostic information to know is: does the tank have delicate invertebrates in it, (other than the one frag) and are they thriving? If so, you can immediately rule out all environmental issues...leaving some fish disease problem. Rapid breathing with no other symptoms means gill disease: could be velvet, or less likely flukes or bacteria.

Jay

Hi Jay,

I have a skunk cleaner in this tank as well as a handful of hermit crabs, common snails, and now 2 Turbo snails, and a chocolate chip star. They all appear to be doing very well.

 

[vetteguy53081]

My first guess is flukes. Not sure if you did freshwater dip yet. It’s 5 mins at same temperature as tank. Look on bottom of preferably a dark bucket for little things that look like sesame seeds. Those would be flukes.
If none, you’ve ruled that out.
For diet, bump it up, add these frozen foods:
Spirulina brine shrimp
LRS fish frenzy or herbivore diet
Mysis shrimp
Small plankton
Formula 2
Hikari dwarf angel formula

add selcon vitamins and garlic extract to the foods for stamina and immunity health

 

[Teku1998]

My first guess is flukes. Not sure if you did freshwater dip yet. It’s 5 mins at same temperature as tank. Look on bottom of preferably a dark bucket for little things that look like sesame seeds. Those would be flukes.
If none, you’ve ruled that out.
For diet, bump it up, add these frozen foods:
Spirulina brine shrimp
LRS fish frenzy or herbivore diet
Mysis shrimp
Small plankton
Formula 2
Hikari dwarf angel formula

add selcon vitamins and garlic extract to the foods for stamina and immunity health

Okay. What if there are flukes? So a RODI dip for 5 minutes in a small container will test that. Got it.

I’m worried about stressing him to death. He had been eating mysis daily and sinking marine pellets (with garlic) by marine one for the duration of his time in the tank. He did not eat last night or this morning.

Is there anything else I can do with the fluke test, or do that and report back?

At this exact moment I’m just trying to gather as much information as possible so I can do everything I can when I get home after work tonight.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Okay. What if there are flukes? So a RODI dip for 5 minutes in a small container will test that. Got it.

I’m worried about stressing him to death. He had been eating mysis daily and sinking marine pellets (with garlic) by marine one for the duration of his time in the tank. He did not eat last night or this morning.

Is there anything else I can do with the fluke test, or do that and report back?

At this exact moment I’m just trying to gather as much information as possible so I can do everything I can when I get home after work tonight.

Flukes again will fall off IF present. You can then treat with prazi pro or ruby rally pro which ruby will work on some parasites also- Some not all

 

[Teku1998]

Flukes again will fall off IF present. You can then treat with prazi pro or ruby rally pro which ruby will work on some parasites also- Some not all

Do you think that I have long to do this? I'm not sure what my LFS has on stock as far as treatments go.

 

[MnFish1]

This is my opinion - you have 2 options. 1. Remove your fish from the tank into a quarantine tank - and treat them all with copper, leave your tank fallow (i.e. without fish) for 76 days - (after doing the freshwater dip suggested by @Jay Hemdal) OR 2. Leave all the fish in the tank and wait.

In either case - you can do a freshwater dip (for flukes) - and as a temporizing method to decrease velvet. Here is an R2R thread about 'flukes' and 'freshwater dips': https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/freshwater-dip.248898/

Here is a thread about the use of copper and keeping a tank fallow (Note I do not believe you 'need' to do anything but the freshwater dip and copper treatment - if you decide to go this way (this is a velvet protocol): https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/#post-2499437

Maybe someone has a more concise copper/fallow protocol - I searched and couldnt easily find it.

In any case - since there aren't a huge number of replies here - no matter which method you use - feed the fish with good quality foods (maybe get a good frozen food at your LFS - like Larry's), try to keep them stress free as possible. Hopefully when you go to the LFS - they will have some more advice - or someone here will give you more information. Hope this helps.

 

[Teku1998]

This is my opinion - you have 2 options. 1. Remove your fish from the tank into a quarantine tank - and treat them all with copper, leave your tank fallow (i.e. without fish) for 76 days - (after doing the freshwater dip suggested by @Jay Hemdal) OR 2. Leave all the fish in the tank and wait.

In either case - you can do a freshwater dip (for flukes) - and as a temporizing method to decrease velvet. Here is an R2R thread about 'flukes' and 'freshwater dips': https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/freshwater-dip.248898/

Here is a thread about the use of copper and keeping a tank fallow (Note I do not believe you 'need' to do anything but the freshwater dip and copper treatment - if you decide to go this way (this is a velvet protocol): https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/#post-2499437

Maybe someone has a more concise copper/fallow protocol - I searched and couldnt easily find it.

In any case - since there aren't a huge number of replies here - no matter which method you use - feed the fish with good quality foods (maybe get a good frozen food at your LFS - like Larry's), try to keep them stress free as possible. Hopefully when you go to the LFS - they will have some more advice - or someone here will give you more information. Hope this helps.

Thank you for all the help. I’m willing to hear all methods. Right now a fish less tank for ~3mo isn’t an option for me really. I will start with a FW dip later this evening

 

[Teku1998]

During the FW dip, I’ve all but confirm it’s ich. He survived the 4.5 minutes. No flukes came out that I saw. After the dip he stayed at the surface floating and eventually got sucked to the return, so I put him in a breeder net box and put an air stone near his area.

I’m heading back to work now for a couple more hours, so I can’t set up the hospital tank right this second, but I do have a spare 20 and a couple hang on back filters I found in my storage that I could definitely set up later tonight if I can make enough water. What do you guys recommend? I bought some copper additive and a test kit while I was at the fish store earlier just in case.

I move in 3 weeks so I’m not sure if a QT for everyone will work out if I have to move that too?

i’m sure it is hard to tell from the pictures, but he was absolutely riddled with spots after being in the freshwater, all on his gills area, his face, and his fins

 

[MnFish1]

During the FW dip, I’ve all but confirm it’s ich. He survived the 4.5 minutes. No flukes came out that I saw. After the dip he stayed at the surface floating and eventually got sucked to the return, so I put him in a breeder net box and put an air stone near his area.

I’m heading back to work now for a couple more hours, so I can’t set up the hospital tank right this second, but I do have a spare 20 and a couple hang on back filters I found in my storage that I could definitely set up later tonight if I can make enough water. What do you guys recommend? I bought some copper additive and a test kit while I was at the fish store earlier just in case.

I move in 3 weeks so I’m not sure if a QT for everyone will work out if I have to move that too?

i’m sure it is hard to tell from the pictures, but he was absolutely riddled with spots after being in the freshwater, all on his gills area, his face, and his fins

It is kind of normal to go downhill after a FW dip temporarily. But - not usually that 'downhill' IME. Did you ever get any medication? or talk to the LFS?

 

[MnFish1]

#reefsquad @ReefSquad

 

[vetteguy53081]

During the FW dip, I’ve all but confirm it’s ich. He survived the 4.5 minutes. No flukes came out that I saw. After the dip he stayed at the surface floating and eventually got sucked to the return, so I put him in a breeder net box and put an air stone near his area.

I’m heading back to work now for a couple more hours, so I can’t set up the hospital tank right this second, but I do have a spare 20 and a couple hang on back filters I found in my storage that I could definitely set up later tonight if I can make enough water. What do you guys recommend? I bought some copper additive and a test kit while I was at the fish store earlier just in case.

I move in 3 weeks so I’m not sure if a QT for everyone will work out if I have to move that too?

i’m sure it is hard to tell from the pictures, but he was absolutely riddled with spots after being in the freshwater, all on his gills area, his face, and his fins

Looks like spots became more distinct. Am I seeing dots or flukes on bottom in lower pic?
Is it still breathing rapidly and are gills red/inflamed?

 

[Teku1998]

It is kind of normal to go downhill after a FW dip temporarily. But - not usually that 'downhill' IME. Did you ever get any medication? or talk to the LFS?

I bought cupramine and copper tests. That’s what the LFS manager recommended.

Looks like spots became more distinct. Am I seeing dots or flukes on bottom in lower pic?
Is it still breathing rapidly and are gills red/inflamed?

The dots came out super distinct after the FW dip. His gills were actually whiter than normal when I left - I didn’t notice any inflammation. He was at the surface gasping in that box when I left.