Flukes, advice on HT procedure

[Claus84]

Hi all,

I have just pulled all the fish out of my 90g reef to treat for flukes and suspected internal parasites. I have qt'ed fish before but only ever observed not medicated so I would be grateful for any advice and critique on my plans.

I have 2 hospital tanks one with my coral beauty, banggai cardinal and ocellaris clown pair (36x12x12) bare bottom with seeded internal filters, pipe elbows etc for shelter. The other tank is a 24x12x15 with substrate, live rock, filter and a small skimmer, I set this up as a grow out tank for my tiny cb flame angel but given the substrate chose to add my green mandarin to this from my DT. My current plan is as follows:

Larger QT (coral beauty/banggai/clowns)
- Treated with flubendazole based anti-fluke and wormer (NT Labs)
- After 7 days wc then treat with prazipro (2 courses 5 days apart with wc in between)
- Metroplex (is it better to dose directly or bind in food w/focus? If so for how long should I treat if using prophylactially?)
- 14 days paraguard? (not sure if this is necessary?)

Smaller QT (mandarin/flame angel)
- 2 courses of prazipro (with skimmer offline)
- Release mandarin in to DT after 4 week fallow period
- Metroplex? - Not sure if this will kill the life on my live rock?
- Paraguard? - as above not sure re live rock

DT - 4 week fallow then phased re-introduction of fish.

The coral beauty has had minor HLLE which I attributed to heavy carbon usage but to be on the safe side I figure metro/paraguard couldn't hurt. As above my current plan involves one medication at a time as I am not sure if any of the above can be mixed to save time? The only step I have taken so far is the flubendazole in the larger QT, at the time I wasn't sure if the Prazipro I ordered from the USA would make it to the UK in time or I may have skipped this step. All my fish are captive bred so the mandarin should be fine for a month in the small tank eating pods, frozen cylops and brine but I am keen to get him back in the display ASAP to avoid any weight loss. I'm also not sure which meds are mandarin safe besides prazi hence releasing him back before metro/para on the assumption that his slime will protect against any external issues whilst the prazi will deal with internal flukes etc.

Thanks in advance

Nick

 

[drawman]

Could you post pics of the coral beauty? To me it would likely be something other than HLLE.

I've never used Flubendazole so I cannot comment but maybe others can chime in. Do you suspect internal parasites or do you want to cover your bases? If you suspect flukes on the outside you could treat the water with API general cure since it contains metro.

I personally wouldn't use the substrate and live rock. You may be best to just get some live food going instead.

 

[Claus84]

Hmm pics may be a work in progress, hard to get it to stay still for a non-blurry photo. In terms of symptoms the fish are or have shown the following:

Coral beauty - currently has rapid breathing and colour on the head looks a bit washed out. Has had stringy feces, the occasional torn fin (always heals within 24hrs), semi-circular pitted mark around each eye (has almost dissapeared since removal of carbon 4 weeks ago which is why I thought maybe HLLE), occasional mark on head or chin which for the most part I thought was from squeezing through the rocks (heals within 24hrs or so) as she has grown from 1" to 2.5" since being in the tank so I figured she may just be getting a bit big for some of her old boltholes!

Clowns - stringy feces

Banggai - One day last week had a torn fin, went off its food and was facing its damaged fin into the flow of the return pump as if trying to dislodge something.

Mandarin - no signs or symptoms but thought it prudent to remove and allow display to go fallow

Flame angel - no obvious signs or symptoms but the fish is currently very small 1" and hard to get a real good luck at things like breating rate.

There are no marks or cysts on any of the fish (except the aformentioned marks on the coral beauty's head which appear to have all cleared). Some of the fin damage could possible be aggression from my female clown as she has recently become much more dominant over the male, I have yet to see her attack the angel or banggai with my own eyes though. All fish are currently eating well and appear pretty healthy to the naked eye.

Re the substrate and live rock, I'm not bothered if I end up killing it off but there are quite a few asterinas and the odd bristleworm so the main concern would be any meds that would cause a huge die-off and pollute the tank. I could maybe treat the tank with prazi to treat the mandarinthen once he is back in the DT remove the LR and subs and treat the flame angel with whichever other meds are necessary?

Thanks

Nick

 

[Claus84]

I did get a bit twitchy when I saw the banggai leaning into the flow as I know this is a symptom of velvet but this was nearly a week ago and no fish have any spots so hoping that rules it out.

 

[ngoodermuth]

You definitely want to address the stringy poop with metroplex/focus bound food. I would do this now while everyone is still eating.

The torn fins may be a bacterial thing, same with the face marks on the coral beauty. I too would like to see a photo if possible. For now, I would soak their food in a vitamin and/or selcon as well, to help boost the immune system.

PraziPro is a good course of action for flukes, but you might want to give one of the fish a fw dip first to confirm that's what you are dealing with (as opposed to ich or velvet) Also, if the infestation is severe the fish might all benefit from a quick fw dip to dislodge the majority of the worms.

 

[Claus84]

You definitely want to address the stringy poop with metroplex/focus bound food. I would do this now while everyone is still eating.

The torn fins may be a bacterial thing, same with the face marks on the coral beauty. I too would like to see a photo if possible. For now, I would soak their food in a vitamin and/or selcon as well, to help boost the immune system.

PraziPro is a good course of action for flukes, but you might want to give one of the fish a fw dip first to confirm that's what you are dealing with (as opposed to ich or velvet) Also, if the infestation is severe the fish might all benefit from a quick fw dip to dislodge the majority of the worms.

Thanks, is metroplex safe to feed if the water has already been treated with another wormer? I always enrich any brine/mysis I feed so will continue to do so whilst they are in the HT.

My original plan was to fw dip the coral beauty prior to placing in the HT but after exerting itself trying not to be caught it wasn't looking too good, very out of breath and laying on its side so I didn't dare push it further with a fw dip, now its settled down again I might dip it tomorrow to confirm.

If the issue is bacterial would any of the previously mentioned meds deal with it?

 

[ngoodermuth]

I'm not familiar with flubendazole, so I'm going to page @Humblefish on that one. I feel like it should be ok, but I'd prefer a second opinion [emoji12]

If it's bacterial... you'll want to use antibiotics. Kanaplex and/or furan-2 are safe to use with metroplex.

 

[Claus84]

dang I knew I should have ordered some kanaplex when I got my metro and prazi! We can't get kanaplex, metroplex, prazi or furan 2 over in the UK so I will have to order from the US again and wait 2 weeks for it to arrive. We can get NT labs anti-bacterial but it states that it is reef-safe so I'm going to hazard a guess that its probably not going to do much!

I might be able to get a prescription for furan from the vets maybe, worth a try anyway!

 

[ngoodermuth]

There might be a suitable alternative in the UK, I'd wait for humble to chime in [emoji848]

 

[Humblefish]

While flubendazole is commonly used to treat internal parasites and worms in dogs and cats, this study found it ineffective against Gyrodactylus (a monogenean) in rainbow trout: http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/12/d012p185.pdf

While this is far from conclusive, Monogenea is the same class that SW flukes & some intestinal worms belong to.

 

[ngoodermuth]

^so maybe pull the flubendazole with carbon and start over with PraziPro and Metro then?

What about antibiotics in the UK? Anything suitable to stand in for kanaplex/furan-2? If needed, of course. You might see the fins and flesh start to heal on their own with the parasites gone.

 

[Humblefish]

^so maybe pull the flubendazole with carbon and start over with PraziPro and Metro then?

Yes, but food must be soaked with metro in order to be effective against the internal worms.

What about antibiotics in the UK? Anything suitable to stand in for kanaplex/furan-2? If needed, of course. You might see the fins and flesh start to heal on their own with the parasites gone.

You can get Kanaplex into the UK, it just takes a week or two to arrive from the US:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Seachem-Kanaplex/dp/B00CJ0VY8G

https://www.vitamingrocer.co.uk/Seachem-Laboratories-Kanaplex-5gm-p/307834.htm

It's all over ebay.co.uk as well.

There's also this product which should be more readily available: http://www.waterlife.co.uk/marine/disease-treatments-2014-02-05/myxazin-detail#.WUl8fDOZNsY

Active ingredients:

• Malachite Green 0.17% w/v
• Formaldehyde 0.24% w/v
• Acriflavine 0.11% w/v

Source: http://www.masa.asn.au/masawiki/index.php/Myxazin

 

[Humblefish]

^^ I saw in another post where Myxazin was purchased from Maidenhead Aquatics, a big chain retailer in the UK.

Anything UK brings back some good memories. ;Happy

 

[Claus84]

While flubendazole is commonly used to treat internal parasites and worms in dogs and cats, this study found it ineffective against Gyrodactylus (a monogenean) in rainbow trout: http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/12/d012p185.pdf

While this is far from conclusive, Monogenea is the same class that SW flukes & some intestinal worms belong to.

Thanks, thats interesting. I searched various reef forums and there is virtually no mention of flubendazole, I guess the above is part of the reason why it's not commonly used.

^so maybe pull the flubendazole with carbon and start over with PraziPro and Metro then?

What about antibiotics in the UK? Anything suitable to stand in for kanaplex/furan-2? If needed, of course. You might see the fins and flesh start to heal on their own with the parasites gone.

I'll do that, I've just done a 75% water change as I was getting a slight ammonia spike in the larger tank. Wary of using carbon in case it was as I suspect a contributor to HLLE in the angel, I could stick some polyfilter in and maye give it 24 hours if that would work, concious I don't want to mix meds if its still in the fishes system.

 

[Claus84]

^^ I saw in another post where Myxazin was purchased from Maidenhead Aquatics, a big chain retailer in the UK.

Anything UK brings back some good memories. ;Happy

I think you would have a shock if you were here at the moment we are in the midst of a very uncharacteristic 30 degree heatwave !

Myxazin is indeed available of the shelf here, do you know if it is as effective as kanaplex/furan? If not I'll definately order some kanaplex, I actually used vitamingrocer for the prazi/metro, wish I had added the kana now too.

How does this sound in terms of a plan for the larger QT? (coral beauty/banggai/clowns)
- Remove flubendazole (75% wc plus polyfilter for 24 hours) then dose prazipro
- After 2 courses of prazipro feed metroplex/focus (every day for a couple of weeks)
- After the prazi dose kanaplex or myxazin
- Monitor and release back into DT after treatment/4 week fallow period (whichever comes first)

Would the above plan also work for the mandarin? I presume many of the treatments except prazi would destroy any life on the LR in the mandarin/flame angel QT. Final question would any of the above destroy filter bacteria? I often work away mid-week so can't really rely on water changes alone.

Appreciate the help and apologies for all the questions but I'm fairly apprehensive adding any meds to the tanks and just want to make sure I'm not mixing anything I shouldn't be!

Thanks

Nick

 

[ngoodermuth]

I wouldn't wait a week to start the metroplex/focus, there's a point of no return with internal worms... usually the fish stops eating and starts breathing heavily and then it's downhill from there.

You can start feeding while doing the two prazi doses.

 

[Humblefish]

I think you would have a shock if you were here at the moment we are in the midst of a very uncharacteristic 30 degree heatwave !

I saw that! Over here (southern US) 35C is a typical summer day. ;Vomit

Myxazin is indeed available of the shelf here, do you know if it is as effective as kanaplex/furan? If not I'll definately order some kanaplex, I actually used vitamingrocer for the prazi/metro, wish I had added the kana now too.

IMO; Myxazin would be best used in a bath treatment, Kanaplex is a proper antibiotic for the QT.

How does this sound in terms of a plan for the larger QT? (coral beauty/banggai/clowns)
- Remove flubendazole (75% wc plus polyfilter for 24 hours) then dose prazipro
- After 2 courses of prazipro feed metroplex/focus (every day for a couple of weeks)
- After the prazi dose kanaplex or myxazin
- Monitor and release back into DT after treatment/4 week fallow period (whichever comes first)

Sounds good except Metroplex/Focus can be fed in conjunction with Prazipro.

Would the above plan also work for the mandarin? I presume many of the treatments except prazi would destroy any life on the LR in the mandarin/flame angel QT. Final question would any of the above destroy filter bacteria? I often work away mid-week so can't really rely on water changes alone.

Mandarins will tolerate Prazipro, Metroplex and Kanaplex; but I'm not sure about the malachite green and formalin found in the Myxazin.

 

[Claus84]

I wouldn't wait a week to start the metroplex/focus, there's a point of no return with internal worms... usually the fish stops eating and starts breathing heavily and then it's downhill from there.

You can start feeding while doing the two prazi doses.

Thanks, I'll make sure the flubendazole is clear and then start up both prazi and metro

 

[Claus84]

I saw that! Over here (southern US) 35C is a typical summer day. ;Vomit

ooph I don't know how you cope, I start to shut down at anything over 25, plus side of living in the UK I guess it will probably be snowing next week!

IMO; Myxazin would be best used in a bath treatment, Kanaplex is a proper antibiotic for the QT.

I've just ordered some kanaplex so hopefully it will arrive just as my prazi/metro treatments finish.

Mandarins will tolerate Prazipro, Metroplex and Kanaplex; but I'm not sure about the malachite green and formalin found in the Myxazin

.

I'll err on the side of caution and avoid the myxazin then, hopefully he will still eat frozen if its mixed with kana/metro, if not he may just end up with a dose of prazi, but I guess thats better than nothing, he still isn't showing any particular signs or symptoms but I'll keep an eye out.

Thanks

 

[Claus84]

You definitely want to address the stringy poop with metroplex/focus bound food. I would do this now while everyone is still eating.

The torn fins may be a bacterial thing, same with the face marks on the coral beauty. I too would like to see a photo if possible. For now, I would soak their food in a vitamin and/or selcon as well, to help boost the immune system.

PraziPro is a good course of action for flukes, but you might want to give one of the fish a fw dip first to confirm that's what you are dealing with (as opposed to ich or velvet) Also, if the infestation is severe the fish might all benefit from a quick fw dip to dislodge the majority of the worms.

I still haven't managed to get a good pic of the angel as she is way to quick for my crappy phone camera but I'll keep trying, at the moment there are no marks on her at all, still elevated breathing rate and the colour on the head looks a bit washed out but she is behaving as normal, still inquisitive and eating well, the banggai's fin has healed now making me wonder if it did just get on the wrong side of the female clown, either way I'll run the course of prazi/metro/kana and hopefully that will solve whatever the issues is!

Thanks