For all the China box haters out there. You might want to see this.

bobman · Apr 1, 2016

nex64 said:
Let's no bash bob for bringing certain facts to our attention. He has only presented the facts and has let us deliberate....

They can bash me if they want I can take it.

Shred I know because I seen it. The guy lives about 10 minutes from me. The picture was just one he posted on a local club forum. You can agree with whoever you want I was not trying to state it was a crap fixture ATI makes but more showing a fact for everyone that says stuff from china is crap that's it is not. But everyone took it 180 from what I was trying to point out and I sure have caught a lot of heat from a supposedly friendly forum for just pointing out a fact.

d2mini · Apr 1, 2016

This pic was on Facebook, too... and it got the same common sense answers there as well.
Pretty much everything made today has parts sourced from elsewhere.
I don't believe there is a single company in germany that makes fans, or probably other parts used in a lighting fixture as well.
Same with Ecotech. Their products may be designed and assembled in the USA, but the parts are from elsewhere.

carolinareefguy · Apr 1, 2016

I just hung my brand new ATI sunpower 8x80 fixture last week. Bought it from Marine Depot during the presidents day sale. Largest sunpower fixture they make...

$560. Shipped

Bpb · Apr 1, 2016

That's a great price. I'm going to have to hold out for a sale when I buy mine

Greenstreet.1 · Apr 1, 2016

Love my Ai's and always will

gus6464 · Apr 2, 2016

A sunpower consists of the following:

Shell (it's just aluminum so who cares?)
Ballast (HEP) not made in China
Reflectors (analod miro silver) made in Germany
Endcaps (plastic) probably China
Wire (who cares it's wire?)
Fans (what fan other than Noctua is not made in China now?) Answer: pretty much none.

So the least most important things are probably made in China which have no effect on the performance. Who cares?

atoll · Apr 2, 2016

So the real question here as I see it is, what constitutes something being made in the company it says on a sticker on an item? From what I understand you hardly have to do/make or alter anything to make a claim something is made in the country it's sold in. The only thing I would worry about being made in China would be me. Now that would be scary

cb684 · Apr 2, 2016

In my opinion this discussion does not make any sense. The only reason I would be interested about where the pieces were made is if there was chance of child work or slavery... ATI made a name for their fixtures, they have a quality control in place, and the knowledge of what they can outsource and what they need to keep in house, this is what I pay for. When I buy a car (or my iPhone) I do not worry what pieces come from where. There are plenty examples of companies that keep their quality, and examples of ones that do not, and then, loose clients. Time is what tell those companies apart.
At this point I have no reason to trust China Boxes, if I buy them is solely for the price and hoping they will work. That is why we are not talking about a brand, we are talking about one category of equipments (cheap light fixtures, produced in China). I believe not all behave the same, and the best brands are just starting to make a name for themselves.
I recently bought a "China Box", I choose the one I found more positive comments from people using them for a while. The ones I bought were not the cheapest one. So why I did not buy the cheapest one? Because I believed there was VALUE in the brand of the one I end up buying. So if a "China box" lover does not buy the cheapest one and pay for brand value, he/she is doing the same thing that it is being criticized in this post.
This discussion about value of branding is not new, and happens with pretty much all products. In most cases the ones that do not believe in brands claim wisdom. In some cases they are right, in others they are wrong. I believe the true wisdom lies somewhat in the middle.

Keithcorals · Apr 2, 2016

I love my ATI fixtures I have tested them side by side with less expensive fixtures and they blow them out of the water as far as output goes( done with my own Par meter both fixtures with same bulbs) I also seem to get longer life out of my bulbs with the ATi fixtures. As long as they continue to deliver that quality and performance I feel they are worth every penny and don't care if they're made on the moon.

atoll · Apr 2, 2016

I have had cheap Chinese lights Evergrow's and AI hydras. To be perfectly honest the Chinese lights gave me the best band for my bucks. I paid little for my Chinese LED units and the quality of build was superb as confirmed by 2 electricians when they saw the insides. OK so not the prettiest lights out there but pretty is not work 3/4/5/6 times the price. When I first bought my Chinese cheapo LED's a well know,n know all sell proclaimed lighting expert on another forum laughed at them and told me I would get little growth and poor colour. Well this guy couldn't have been more wrong if he tried. He did everything he could to rubbish them but each time I proved him wrong. I have lots of pic's of my tank and a friends SPS dominated tank with these lights on running for 4 years. In the end the guy just sulked away with all the evidence I supplied. Not even any acknowledgment that my lights were producing very good results. I have no problems with people paying thousands of dollars for their lights it's their money but when somebody tries to tell me they are no good then they better back it up. The truth of the pudding my friends is in the eating.

tcarter1936 · Apr 2, 2016

I have had excellent acro growth and color from my black box leds.that stated my decision was financially motivated since I needed three fixtures. I fully agree that I would have made a better purchase buying brand name due only to quality control and company's standing by the product. I am fully aware of the risk I took and consider myself lucky to have made it two years so far. When they crap out I will not be foolish enough to email my no name led manufacturer in China as if I even would get a response it would not be legible or helpfull. Case in point you are paying for brand based on quality control and customer service / warranty. I believe a good company with good service and support is always the wisest choice. Also if I only bought American I would be sitting in an empty house. I wish more companies would not out source but this is not the case.
And to the op thanks for the info it never hurts to get more info in order to make an informed decision on the products we choose. The choice is yours it's always a risk to by generic.

Greenstreet.1 · Apr 2, 2016

As long as the job is done does it matter where it's made ?

If you have the funds and like it why not buy it ?

Beej1254 · Apr 2, 2016

Ive honestly never run into a piece of equipment that didn't have some part of it made in China or some other location. It's just the way things go. I'm just over 14 months in this hobby and I've definitely gone through a fair share of junk equipment to more quality stuff. It's easy to see the companies that have good quality control, research, design, customer support, usability and performance vs the companies that may take some of the same parts and just put them together. I don't believe it's right for anyone to say "well it's made in China so it's cheap". You get more from certain companies which is USUALLY why you pay more.

But then again..and I am definitely NOT talking about ATI here because I haven't even checked out their stuff one time (yet). But I believe companies get to a point where they know people trust the name. So they continue to sell products at premium prices and what's worse is those products require other separately sold products to work. Those products may or may not be built with higher quality parts then if another company made the same thing and sold it cheaper. Hopefully the rest of what they offer makes it worth it to the consumer.

Pat Clark · Apr 2, 2016

The only beef I have is when company's outsource there parts to China and then have their products ripped off then complain about it. Jebeo comes to mind. International laws need to change or be enforced. My opinion based on no facts, just what I see I, could be wrong though.

Lowell Lemon · Apr 2, 2016

The reason for the label is that country of origin is required by some international trade law as well as laws in the United States. I do have a problem with a company taking off the labels and representing them as a U.S. made product. If they are willing to lie about the origin just wait until you need customer service.

I have been trying to secure U.S. made acrylic but the local distributors refuse to stock the brand and the manufacturer refuses to sell to me directly. So in all honesty how can I represent a new product as all U.S. made if I have to use acrylic from Mexico?

alan j t · Apr 2, 2016

https://reefbuilders.com/2013/01/30/cheap-chinese-led-causes-fire/

michaelrc51 · Apr 2, 2016

The parts are made in China usually but designed/engineered and manufactured in the US or Germany. You might not think there is any difference but there are so many other parts inside there that can be produced either very inexpensively or expensively depending upon a lot of other factors.
The extra $$$ you pay for a "quality" part is due to many factors.
1. What LED is used
2. How much power that LED needs
3. Quality of engineered products
4. Engineering
5. The installation and fabrication of the whole unit
etc

There are so many variables, to say you can buy a block box that has equal performance to an ATI for 1/3 of the price is insane.
If you want to say you get more bang for the buck, well that is really personal preference.
Bottom line is you buy what you can and try to implement them to the best of your ability.
But, unless you directly compare the 2 in the same environment and controlled variables how are you going to know which one performs better?

Just look at what is actually involved to build/ engineer what is in an LED light housing. Browse these threads.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-lights-v3.234465/
The other one I was going to link must be on the other forum.

Imagine building one and then continuously redoing them until you get it right?
IMO that is what you are paying more for. They have proven performance, with the black box you are the guinea pig!

kevantheman35 · Apr 2, 2016

I've had every type of lighting at one time or another. Currently I have both an ATI sunpower and a reef radiance black box. The ATI smokes the black box in every aspect but price. There are great tanks using both types of lighting, to some the extra performance is worth the extra money, to others its not. Do what works for you and what your budget allows, but don't knock ATI for having a casing that was sourced from china.

bobman · Apr 2, 2016

Let try to compare apples to apples oranges to oranges. Comparing a t5 to led has been beat into the dirt. Let compare the ATI against a couple other options out there. Lets use the ATI Sunpower 48" 8 Bulb fixture against the hydrofarm 48" 8 bulb fixture then lastly the Aquatic life 48" 8 bulb fixture.

So we have the ATI if you were to buy it now on BRS for 585.99 Shipped to your door. Which honestly is not bad they used to be much higher.

This is from the BRS site on the ATI
Just 2.1" thick, 48" ATI SunPower High Output T5 fixture provides optimal performance in a slim, contemporary design.

Parabolic Miro-Silver reflectors made from silver-coated 98% reflective aluminum for each bulb

Active cooling system

2 Power cords - one controls 2 bulbs and the other controls remaining bulbs

High-end components for 50% more light output

Energy efficient

Quiet operation

Built-in electronic ballasts

1 Year Manufacturer's Warranty

Bulbs Sold Separately

Ok bulbs sold separately thats kind of stings right out the gate as you now must purchase 8 t5 bulbs. So lets stick with ATI since they make some killer bulbs cant nobody deny that from BRS they are 21.99 each we need 8 so 175.92 added on the the price of the fixture for a total cost of 761.91 and you have a up and running fixture. I will leave bulb selection out of it as the cost of the bulbs are pretty much the same at 21.99. Still not to bad. Only thing I am not sure I like about this fixture is 1 cord controls 2 bulbs and the other controls the remaining 6 but I guess thats a matter of opinion. I know what the inside of these fixtures look like it is a couple fans ballasts wires and endcaps all of which are made in china. But as already stated what electronics are not made in china these days. I do not know where the reflectors are made but all inner workings are of good quality reguardless of where it was made and the reflectors are just simply exceptional no question about it but I dont see how they can claim they put out 50% more light than other fixtures I just find that hard to believe.

Now lets look at the hydrofarm 48" 8 bulb fixture. This fixture is designed for a plant grow fixture and not the reef tank but I seen many use it because of cost. This is a cheap fixture and I am sure it is made and assembled in china then shipped to the USA. If I wanted to buy it right now I can find it on amazon for 175.64. According to there site this is what they had to say about this fixture

4 ft/8 lamp unit with two toggle switches allows the option to power 4 or 8 lamps
High performance faceted specular aluminum for better light distribution
May be daisy-chained together
Powder coated textured steel housing
Low profile
Hangs 2 ways - overhead & vertical
10' grounded power cord
Includes eight fluorescent 6400K, T5 tubes

Right off I will say I dont know anyone that runs 6400K over reef maybe 1 or 2 bulbs but not 8. So we will need bulbs again we will go with the unbeatable ATI bulbs from BRS to kep all factors as even as I can. So at 21.99 per bulb total cost would be 351.56 plus 24.36 shipping unless you are a prime customer so lets add in shipping now total cost to have this fixture about your tank is 375.92. Now I have seen these fixtures over a few tanks and they work well. However the quality of this fixture is poor. It feels flimsy does not have individual reflectors like the ATI and I am sure they are not 98% reflective. There also is no fans to cool the bulbs so bulb life will be reduced. However It works fine and grows anything you want where you want to grow it. Each cord controls 4 bulbs which I personally like better but thats just preference. I also dont see anything mentioned about a warranty I assume they do have one but I cant see for how long like the 1 year for ATI. I dont know I have seen these run with no problems over a reef for over 5 years and are still running today. With that said it is a low budget option that will get the job done. All in all if you have the extra about $400 to spend on a light fixture ATI is the way to go but if the bank account cries every time you walk into a LFS then this might be an option. You dont get as much bang but you sure saved some serious bucks.

Next up is the Aquaticlife 48" 8 bulb fixture. Probably could have picked an easier fixture to find online if I was going to compare it but... it can be found at new age aquatics for 538.00 and qualifies for free shipping. It comes bulbs so no need to buy them separately (yeah right) Not sure if I am crazy about the bulb selection but hey it came with bulbs so I am not going to knock it. The web site had this to say about it

The ideal fixture for coral farming!
Digital Timer controls two sets of four lamps for easier lighting management
Triple-seal silicone endcaps protect wires and lamp pins so no lens cover is required
Individual parabolic reflectors use 95% reflective material to maximize light output
Metal clips hold lamps securely in place
Industrial grade powder-coated steel housing will provide years of useful life
Included Aquarium Frame Mounts hold fixture securely on the aquarium
Optional Suspension Hardware provides for multiple mounting configurations
Includes premium Aquatic Life T5 HO Lamps
420/460nm Actinic/Blue Lamps (Qty. 5)
10,000K Ardent White Lamps (Qty. 1)
460/620nm Purple Lamps (Qty. 2)
Single two meter power cord simplifies placement on the aquarium
Open face design provides ample cooling with quiet operation
Four high-output ballasts deliver more wattage to each lamp for a brighter lighting experience

So we have individual reflectors and IMO can compete with ATI. ATI's claim is that there is a little better so I wont argue that I have no proof otherwise. The triple seal end caps just tells me when replacing bulbs you will be saying a whole lot of cuss words lol. Not needing a splash shield will just make you have to clean the reflector and bulbs from salt spray but most splash shields get colored after time and suck IMO. The single two meter power cord I am not sure what that means exactly but will assume it means there is only 1 power cord that can be good or bad depending how you look at it but it has built in timers so if you like built in timers I personally am old school and like my cheap HD timers but people are getting into this kind of stuff so hey. The four ballasts also has its pros and cons more electrical pieces mean more chance of failure however on the other hand if you loose a bulb you done have to buy a pricey ballast the 2 bulb t5ho ballasts are cheap and you could get the ballasts made by HEP which are the same ballasts used in ATI fixtures. On BRS for 24.99 but I am sure amazon will have them much much cheaper. If not I also see this fixture has a 5 Year Warranty that even ATI cant touch. I do not know how good there customer service is but from the reviews I have seen on ATI lately they customer service is leaving a lot to be desired and I tend to believe whats online as I didnt exactly get a warm reply from them earlier in this post. But what ever thats water under a bridge. But in the end I would have to say this fixture may have a bigger bang for your buck based on what I see. They offer pretty much the same quality with a few features so close to the same amount of bang but they leave just over 200 big one in your pocket. Heck that covers half the cost of your skimmer.

Thats it for now I will get some LEDs pinned up next against the china boxes. And give my opinion on them. Again this is all an opinion. But I see countless threads on here and other forums on not to buy this as its from china so the build quality is crap and dont buy that its from china its just going to die and take you tank with you. I get a good laugh as most of everything we buy today is from china sure some engineering goes into it but same engineering goes into everything else as well. The ballast in an ATI fixture is made by HEP there is nothing specially engineered for it to go into there fixtures it is a standard t5HO ballast. You can get it at almost any lighting shop. The reflectors on the other hand sure there are some engineering that went into it over 10 years ago. Does that still justify such a high cost today? They have not changed. But I am just trying to show new hobbyist out here that you can build a tank on a budget and have an amazing tank. I see these new guys come on here and ask about a light and pretty much get slammed by people saying you need this 1,000,000 dollar light or you are to broke to be in this hobby and a lot of times I just sit back and think man if this guy only knew. Hey if that $1,000,000 makes you feel warm and fuzzy great it better thats for sure but there are many many cheaper alternatives out there that have just as good as quality if not better but at a fraction of the cost.

Okay I am done will put something together on leds next but I think I just typed more than I have in 10 years lol.