For all the China box haters out there. You might want to see this.

[Kershaw]

I am all about what works. I paid 425 for a mp40 few years ago. I still want some because I love the way they look on the tank. I am using jeabeo now. They both work. I have kessils, and I love them. How ever I am thinking of selling one so I can get two of the ocean revive lights. I'll use kessil for shimmer and other led for Main lights. I agree the cheap lights are just as good. Where it's made dose not matter. What matters is ( support for the products we buy regardless of who made it, and the reliability) I use jeabeo power heads but I am too afraid to use them for a return pump. Given the past problems with there power heads I can't put my faith in there return pumps.

 

[gus6464]

Haha well Centiums aren't really aquarium hobby specific but they are the best T5 ballasts in the market.

 

[danielb333]

Yes I already have my mind made up on this it was not a question. More a topic for discussion. See what others think. It was never supposed to be anything more than that. With your statement on how the design and production will impact how the light works as well as the spectrum is 1 i fully agree with. T5 is easy as they are all made pretty much the same at the end of the day. Some parts may be made better but in the end what makes a t5ho a t5ho is the same. Leds are a lot more complex and going to take a lot more digging into what they actually have before I can comment. Each is made very differently so it will take some research a lot deeper than just a lookie on the interweb. I might actually have to open some up

Yes I already have my mind made up on this it was not a question. More a topic for discussion. See what others think. It was never supposed to be anything more than that.

With your statement on how the design and production will impact how the light works as well as the spectrum is 1 i fully agree with. T5 is easy as they are all made pretty much the same at the end of the day. Some parts may be made better but in the end what makes a t5ho a t5ho is the same. Leds are a lot more complex and going to take a lot more digging into what they actually have before I can comment. Each is made very differently so it will take some research a lot deeper than just a lookie on the interweb. I might actually have to open some up

I would recommend SB reef light. Would like to see a comparison vs the others. Seems to be the best black box out there and the facebook community is awesome super helpful as is the company itself. Not your typical company at all. Feels like dealing with a local family store. Great customer service. Loving the lights so far.

 

[silvernblackr35]

Not necessarily true. Cars like Honda are made in Japan then assembled here in the states but are not sold as an American made product.

http://news.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=7563-en

http://www.fisherhonda.com/honda-ac...cars-with-the-most-north-american-made-parts/

They are most definitely sold as American made products. What you are trying to compare is a Chinese company who manufactures and assembles their product in China to a company that receives some electrical parts from China and assembles it in Germany. It's still a German made fixture, and the best on the market at that. I don't really understand the direction of the post.

 

[beastium]

Racism is OK if it's about manufacturing.

 

[dbrewsky]

I think a lot of the issue is that the US no longer has real industry. Also, if a factory in china is told to make product X for a cost of $100 dollars US, they are going to build a crappy product to meet the companies demands. Factory Y across the street is instructed and supplied to build the same product except with high quality components, tooling, and labor for a cost of $300 to build and guess what.... that product is going to be comparable with products made in other countries but costing much more due to increased labor and production costs.

What happens in the aquarium industry is no different from any other industry in the world. Also this is a small scale market and the costs of production for a company to buy manufacturing space, tooling, materials, and labor to make 5,000 units a year here in the US just doesn't make financial sense and those costs would drive the same product up 4x just to cover the overhead. Since China already has established industry, they simply can retool to produce an aquarium component and then continue on with other larger orders.

This is an expensive hobby...there is no way of getting around the fact that you are trying to support a reef thousands of miles away from its natural habitat. Whether you buy high quality equipment that needs to be replaced every 5 years or "cheap" lower quality equipment every year for that same 5 year period.... tell me is it cheaper in the long run over the high priced equipment? Ask any reefer who has been in the hobby for awhile what their top 5 recommendations to new reef keepers are, and I guarantee you will see "buy the right/quality equipment the first time."

 

[atoll]

Whether you buy high quality equipment that needs to be replaced every 5 years or "cheap" lower quality equipment every year for that same 5 year period.... tell me is it cheaper in the long run over the high priced equipment? Ask any reefer who has been in the hobby for awhile what their top 5 recommendations to new reef keepers are, and I guarantee you will see "buy the right/quality equipment the first time."

Hmmm, so which cheap Chinese LED's are we replacing every year? Mine have been running for 3 years and are just fine and I know of many more still going strong bought around the same time. Now how many "high quality" (so called) LED's made say 3 years ago are still the latest in technology and how much can they be brought for now secondhand? I will answer that not many and they can be picked up quite cheaply secondhand. So yes, in fact it can be cheaper in the long run you see to buy the cheaper Chinese gear. BTW 35 year in reefing here just in case you think I have just arrived on the scene. I can tell you about issues with Maxspect LED's Radions and others having issues with quality.
I can afford to replace my cheap Chinese LED units every year or so and keep up with the latest units for a fraction of the cost of a Radion for instance not that I need to. I am not saying the cheap Chinese units are better than those costing 6 times the price but don't tell me they don't give you excellent results and offer VGVFM. My Cheap Jebao DC6000 return pump is still going well after a year.
If you think Radions are worth 6 times the price of a cheap Chinese LED unit fine pay it I have no problem with that but I do have an issue with the one-upmanship that often goes with this hobby and people telling me how poor my cheap Chinese equipment is. One other thing we can't all afford the Rolls Royce of equipment but that does not mean we can't have success with something costing a lot less like a small family car that will takes us to the same place as the Roller.
You pays your money and takes your pick.

 

[silvernblackr35]

I think the main issue with the whole equipment bashing subject is the fact that even if it works for someone else there will always be those people that make it about "us vs them". The proof is there and we all know the Chinese fixtures can grow corals just fine and make your tank look good while doing it. I still like my T5s, why does it matter?

 

[dbrewsky]

Believe me i get the one one upsmanship aspect of the hobby, I feel that alot of people believe that if they get product A, they will have success over product B. But in reality, it comes down to the user and their experience.

Example A- I was a fly fishing guide for a long time and my clients would have 1000 dollar sage rods and couldn't cast to save their lives, but they thought they were awesome fisherman because of the flashy gear. I on the other hand have 200 dollar Temple Fork Outfitter rods that are made per US specification in china using similar technologies and materials. Guess what, I can throw a full fly line just as well or better with the cheap rod as the premium sage rod. Now granted, the details of the rod and the feel during the cast and responsiveness will always be better with the premium fly rod and I can appreciate that if I went fishing the same stream a couple times each summer, however when I have clients that need multiple rods for different waters and are highly prone to breaking them, ill take the cheaper rods any day!!

Along the same lines, all products from high range to cheap can break. It is only logical that a device with higher quality components and manufacturing will have less likely hood of this happening vs a product developed with cheaper components and labor to meet the same price point. Again with my fly fishing analogy, a $1000 dollar rod and a $100 dollar rod will break if you slam them in a car door or walk them into a tree. One thing that does make a difference in these case that I dont believe has been discussed is having a manufacturer who stands behind their products and will warranty a flawed device.

I too have been in the hobby for a long time and I have run the gamut of poor college kid trying to make things work with no money up to the name brand gear and I have had both good and bad experiences with both spectrums and have been successful. But I have also replaced that same equipment way to many times before getting to the "high quality" equipment whether to replace it because it failed/didn't work as advertised or upgraded that I really dont want to think how much money I could have saved in the long run!

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

/clap

 

[bobman]

Dont know have not seen anyting come from Mexico for the aquarium hobby. But when it does I will be happy to try them.

I must take this back I got a ballast from accustart for a 2 bulb t5ho yesterday and installed it it works great so far. It said made in Mexico so I will let you know how it turns out. lol

 

[GoGo98102]

I think it needs clarification that while I agree one needs the buy the "right" equipment the first time or face the upgrading cost down the road, the word "right" doesn't mean expensive name brand.
When someone bought a cheap HOB skimmer for their tank that's way larger than the HOB skimmer can handle, I would strongly advice against it. On the other hand, I would never advice him to get a Royal Exclusiv because everything cheaper is crap.
In the case of T5, to tell someone who's buying a Home Depot fixture that those types of light won't work well for the reef is very different from telling someone that he has to buy an ATI. One is just common sense and the other is boardering on elitism.

 

[Bill Bolton]

Just because something says "Made in China", doesn't mean it's junk. If it is a company like ATI, the product is designed in Germany and built in China, to ATI specs. It is the knockoff products, that look identical to the name brand stuff that is junk. It has zero quality control and even less control as to the components that go into the product.
Reef keeping is one of the few hobbies that the hobby grade equipment, and the pro grade equipment are about the same thing. Of course the stuff used in public aquariums and commercial settings is going to be bigger, and not so dependant on a plug, but rather hard wired, but the designs and all are the same.

 

[Brian Kim]

Folks I am not sure what all the chatter is about, ATI Fixtures are still made in Germany... Are some of the components sourced from other countries? Of course. Has anything changed with your beloved ATI (as the OP put it, thanks by the way) no, its made from the same stuff it has always been made from.

Can you be a bit more clear in regards to "made in Germany" remark? As far as I know, if vast majority of the parts/components are from China then perhaps it would be more appropriate to say assembled in Germany.

 

[yacn]

Made in Germany must mean it's a well engineered product or built product....NOT
I had 700 series BMW....engine was piece of crap....$80,000 car. They would only replace the engine if it fell within certain specs...of course it fell in those specs just after the warranty expired.
Japan can make crap and so do U.S. companies. Cost doesn't always mean quality...especially in this hobby

Too many way over priced products out there because they are made specifically for our hobby. When you find similar products used for other applications at a fraction of the cost.

Skimmers are the biggest scam.....acrylic cylinder, bubble plate and motor....companies charging hundreds if not thousands of dollars....what a joke....probably cost them near nothing to build.

 

[Ginu]

Any company can make crap stuff. I personally like to pay a little extra and get something of a better quality.
For example the iPhone is made is China but designed to US and they are made to Apple standards of quality.. FYI - I am not a Apple fan
I'm sure ATI has some parts made in China and other countries, but the quality standard has to match, otherwise I'm sure ATI would source different companies.

For example, I found Chinese made clothing in Germany which surpass the quality of clothing we I see in Canada and the prices in Germany are better than Vancouver,Canada; so I really think it comes down to the standards of the product and the standards of the purchasing country and not entirely where its made...

Now in regards to the BMW thing comment above, there are some models of BMW better than others and vice-versa... I have a 2009 328 IS and haven't had any issues with it besides the regular maintenance (oil, tires and occasional light bulb). Now If i start to compare the craftsmanship of the car, then thats a different story, the attention to detail, vibration control among many other features is extremely hard to beat...
For example my 2014 Mazda CX5 fully loaded top model lights only the driver window up/down button and I think door lock button... meanwhile the BMW has individual lights in all buttons along with a discrete light above the door handle... The BWM has a discrete red led above the middle console so I can always see the gearshift and the area around it without turning on the console light, the Mazda has nothing ( I need to turn on the light to see in the dark) and to top it all off, the rear of the BMW has the same discrete led on the middle console even-though the car is a two door and very rarely someone sits back there, let alone use the temperature controls... Even my gearshifter has a LED in it so I can see my gear formation...
If we move to the plastics on the BMW, the insulation and material is superior and best I've ever seen so far, however some parts of the car are made in China/Mexico/US and so on. If I recall, all BMW transmissions are made by GM and BMW is now producing cars in Mexico and US. My car is assembled in Germany and the following years the production was moved to Mexico where the quality dropped off unfortunately...

 

[loz]

Personally i don't like anything made in china ..no and no... i never mind pay double price to get better and safer products .Don't quote me

 

[Brian Kim]

I don't mind paying premium dollar for something built in the US or Germany. I mean, we all know that, it cost more to make the parts here and also labor is at least 10-15 x higher... but when companies start outsourcing it no longer deserves the premium price tag and I refuse to support their corporate greed. @dbrewsky I am also a fisherman, saltwater mostly, not sure if you are familiar with Van Staal reels but I stopped buying them once they started making them in China, obviously all that engineering and design didn't mean anything once it got outsourced, only the look remained the same.

 

[bobman]

I can see paying more for quality but some of the cheaper stuff has the same quality. As far as engineering goes I get that point to but only for so long. ATI for example there base line t5 fixtures (without leds and all that some are comeing with now) Have been on the market for over 10 years you cant tell me any real engineering has gone into them in over the past 5 years at least. Hard to justify paying for engineering of a fixture that has not changed much. There reflectors are the same they have been. Great quality but then same. Ballasts have not changed (well maybe I dont know what every fixture has run over the years) and a shell. Not much has changed to say we pay for the engineering. Sure that would justify cost in the beginning but not 10 years later.

 

[JackDE]

I just ordered 2 box lights. Can't wait to get them!