For you that aren’t on GHLs Facebook group: A request for an ION D video
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This feels like the wool has been pulled over our eyes. The promise of a video after a patent is secure didn't add up. Now that the latest excuse is laid out in front of us, it doesn't square for me.
Is it a patent? Or was it the original "supply chain issues"?
If they knew the real reason was securing enough resources, why were we led to believe that the only hold up was a patent?
I don't know... it seems that they were intentional about how they approached this, in fear that they'd insight a mass retraction of funds from prepaid orders they strung us along to get to a position that they can finally tell us what they knew all along.
Unfortunately, they got away with it and because we were given this nugget of information means that they don't need to keep lying to us to keep the ship from sinking.
Or maybe this is all a ruse as well and we're still being manipulated. I pulled my money out... and at this point I have high expectations of the product... it had better be flawless!
Is it a patent? Or was it the original "supply chain issues"?
If they knew the real reason was securing enough resources, why were we led to believe that the only hold up was a patent?
I don't know... it seems that they were intentional about how they approached this, in fear that they'd insight a mass retraction of funds from prepaid orders they strung us along to get to a position that they can finally tell us what they knew all along.
Unfortunately, they got away with it and because we were given this nugget of information means that they don't need to keep lying to us to keep the ship from sinking.
Or maybe this is all a ruse as well and we're still being manipulated. I pulled my money out... and at this point I have high expectations of the product... it had better be flawless!
I am so glad I pulled out of this one six months ago. I predicted that they would delay it again and they have not disappointed. I will make another prediction based on my experience in the field and that is that they will not be releasing them to the public in Feb 2021. Two months is not sufficient time to beta test a product like this. If even just one hardware problem occurs in January they will have to replace all the Beta units and reset the clock. You typically want a minimum time of 6 months of Beta testing on a product like this and that's assuming that GHL has already had half a dozen of the new probes being tested in house from 7 months ago. If your going to give a one year guarantee on the probes you better be sure that they last at least one year and change, if not your going to have to give away thousands of expensive probes for free to calm irate customers.
Putting that all aside I am still perplexed by the Video. As @Sisterlimonpot said it's now not clear what is going on. We all know the Patent excuse is BS, so what is the reason why they will not show a video?
This is not much different from the Trident, "Fake it till you make it" it will come, they know it has to be perfect.
Not to mention the supply/release black eye that Neptune got.;Blackeye
Not to mention the supply/release black eye that Neptune got.;Blackeye
Siggy, this is somewhat different. Neptune didn't take hundreds of thousands of dollars in pre-order sales on the back of a ready product just waiting for units to be built and then a year later advise they still don't have a working product. Remember, this is the 5th revision of a promised release date with money in hand.
Trey
Active Member
Ya the trident. A product that’s out and works just fine.
I’m not canceling my preorder. Would I like to have it now, yes. The thing is it’s because i want my testing to be easier and automated a bit. So I have to hand test some things for a bit longer. That means nothing has changed for me other than I will have to refill some test kits a few more times than I would have. My ghl has been rock solid and have pretty much no complaints other than some start up/ learning curve issues. I have never heard that said about any newer apex almost everyone I know that has one has had some issue.
At work it has been a nightmare getting materials so I can fully relate to the nightmare of sourcing right now. Manufacturing through a pandemic is extremely hard.
At work it has been a nightmare getting materials so I can fully relate to the nightmare of sourcing right now. Manufacturing through a pandemic is extremely hard.
r21
Community Member
Im disappointed about the delay but that is not the real issue, the lack of updates, the dubious reasons for delay are. Sourcing material maybe an issue but they would certainly have known months ago they hadn’t sent out units for beta testing and that testing would take months meaning it was never going to be ready for autumn, keeping customers that have already paid for a product up to date is not unreasonable and would have avoided a lot of the negativity. Avoiding direct reasonable questions and blocking commenting on Facebook posts is just poor customer service
Gaël
Well-Known Member
Hi,
Their communication is probably not perfect, but it is not easy to announce things when there is uncertainty and that all does not go as desired.
You are assuming a lot, probably too much ... what tells you that these beta field tests were not long planned and postponed too?
I think there is no point in rehash again and again.
They are well aware of our disappointments and would really have liked things to turn out differently.
I suggest to come back to the subject of this topic which is the video of the IOND running and therefore wait patiently for the patent to be validated and the video disclosed
You regret that the comments were closed on the facebook post, it would be a shame if the same would happen here.
Let's stay constructive and positive
Gaël
Their communication is probably not perfect, but it is not easy to announce things when there is uncertainty and that all does not go as desired.
You are assuming a lot, probably too much ... what tells you that these beta field tests were not long planned and postponed too?
I think there is no point in rehash again and again.
They are well aware of our disappointments and would really have liked things to turn out differently.
I suggest to come back to the subject of this topic which is the video of the IOND running and therefore wait patiently for the patent to be validated and the video disclosed
You regret that the comments were closed on the facebook post, it would be a shame if the same would happen here.
Let's stay constructive and positive
Gaël
You regret that the comments were closed on the facebook post, it would be a shame if the same would happen here.
Let's stay constructive and positive
Gaël
Fortunately, or unfortunately for GHL that won't happen here, GHL doesn't moderate this forum.
Flame away!
r21
Community Member
I am being constructive, offering GHL the chance to respond and them failing to do so or locking threads on Facebook is not constructive. I hope the product is great and works as expected, I hope GHL learn from this and are more open going forward although their behaviour doesn’t suggest that.Hi,
Their communication is probably not perfect, but it is not easy to announce things when there is uncertainty and that all does not go as desired.
You are assuming a lot, probably too much ... what tells you that these beta field tests were not long planned and postponed too?
I think there is no point in rehash again and again.
They are well aware of our disappointments and would really have liked things to turn out differently.
I suggest to come back to the subject of this topic which is the video of the IOND running and therefore wait patiently for the patent to be validated and the video disclosed
You regret that the comments were closed on the facebook post, it would be a shame if the same would happen here.
Let's stay constructive and positive
Gaël
Also I’m not assuming anything, GHL stated that they had yet to begin beta testing “This starts around mid-November” and if they had postponed it months ago, why not tell people about the issues and the potential delay months ago
Europe was more or less in lockdown mode for several months during the spring. Borders was closed - supply lines was broken. Many large companies was more or less closed - not because they did not sell but because of lack of components. Deliver just in time is the rule in Europe- Transport capacity was used for transport of needed components in the health care. 90 % of the airplanes was grounded.
The ION director is an advanced equipment with key components from specialists all around the world - it is enough that only one components support line get broken - and you can´t assembly the equipment.
I´m not sure that you really understand how this affect the whole society in Europe and the industry. And - as it looks for the moment - there is a new shut down round the corner - it has already starts in most of Europe's countries.
As 70 years old - the most important for me is my safety and that I will survive until the day I can see the ION director working at my job - It can take the time it needs.
And if you have ordered and not want to wait - just cancel the order and get your refund. That has been a possibility since the first delay
Sincerely Lasse
The ION director is an advanced equipment with key components from specialists all around the world - it is enough that only one components support line get broken - and you can´t assembly the equipment.
I´m not sure that you really understand how this affect the whole society in Europe and the industry. And - as it looks for the moment - there is a new shut down round the corner - it has already starts in most of Europe's countries.
As 70 years old - the most important for me is my safety and that I will survive until the day I can see the ION director working at my job - It can take the time it needs.
And if you have ordered and not want to wait - just cancel the order and get your refund. That has been a possibility since the first delay
Sincerely Lasse
Not defending, but admittedly somewhat defending... for the last several months the material, technology, manufacturing sector has been to put it bluntly totally screwed. It is not as simple as making a couple phone calls and shopping for the lowest price. There are specs that (must) be 100% matched. So you are working weeks or months ahead. Hell most are a year aged in this. So say you’ve done this, now your source is shutdown. Do you try to find another source? How many companies can make what you want. What if there are only 2 companies in the world that can make what you want? The second one can make it, but, because of the short notice it’s 3x the cost. Do you wait out the 1st source that could be open before the 2nd is? What if what you ordered has been made and shipped but is caught in customs? I could go on with these. Do you give these updates that go back and forth multiple times in a week to every customer? Sometimes silence is the best answer because the one answering couldn’t tell you because the variables have become so vast. They have been running it for awhile, at a manufacturing company you don’t just run 1 You run multiples. But they are engineers, how does the average person do with operating it. They changed the operation to use different amounts and pump qty. I payed for the newest version not the outdated version. Then going through patenting thrown in to the mix... I’m not sure of how that works in Europe the US is a pain and expensive so I’d assume they are similar. I’ve worked with German engineers a lot and they keep things close to the vest anyway. Even more so if your literal name is on the product and company. Germans are not boisterous and as forward as Americans either anyway.
My money is already spent so I’m not missing it. If they were to go out business then that’s a whole different game. We live in a whole society where you can order on Amazon and have it tomorrow. I’ve worn both of the shoes in this deal. The best you can do is what they have said. If you want your money back then you can do that. how long was the trident talked about and touted? How many iterations of it? Ghl took preorders. God forbid you have it so people aren’t buying 3 to just scam triple prices on eBay or the like. Do you want them to send you a gen5 Radion that you have to disassemble and fix out of the box because they are cracked? Mindstream with no wheel? How about pump with cracked volutes? I could keep going on with faulty brand new aquarium products that have to market that you are the guinea pig and beta tester. This hobby is one of patience. Some have never bought a $100 coral to watch it do nothing for a year then suddenly it decides hey I’ll finally grow uncontrollably.
That would be fine if they didn't put out pictures and videos touting that they had everything to make the product, they dangled the automation video as if they were on the cusp of putting them in boxes and ready to be shipped. So supply wasn't an issue.
Then the excuse became, we're waiting on a patent, once that gets approved then look out! You'll have videos coming from everywhere you wont know what to do with all the videos....they're going to be the best videos! Quite frankly, no one makes a better video...
Now we're back to it was and is supply chain issues. Which is it? Both cant be the issue. They seem to be excuses to fit the narrative at the time. What can we say to buy more time?
If the videos automation were meant to deceive us from the beginning, then the question becomes, "what are they hiding?" "What are they afraid of?"
That's my chief complaint. Covid crippled everything I get that, and it's quite possible that this pandemic bought them more time and sympathy from customers. But when they start over analyzing outcomes of a potential message to the customer they start to fear the worst scenarios. "If we go with excuse X, then Y might be the outcome" No excuse would've yielded good response, they were trying to find the one with the least amount of repercussions. Where they messed up is changing their excuse. They should've hedged their bets and stuck with the truth from the beginning. Instead they got caught in their own web of deception.
I'll venture to guess that their chief fear for Y was not to cause a public panic that resulted in everyone demanding their money back, that would've forced further delays or even worse halted the entire project.
I dont think they needed to patronize us, theres more respect when you're open and honest from the beginning, it would've beared more fruit in the long run.
Instead what they did is shameful.
r21
Community Member
I agree lots of issues that have resulted in the delay, however good communication and showing paying customers a little respect costs nothing. I’m yet to decide if I’ll cancel or not, whether I do will have no impact on me (I have a trident) or GHL.
@Sisterlimonpot If you do not think it exist - do not buy it. The way you describe the company - maybe that´s common in the US - but it is not common in Europe. If they say that they have shot a video in september but will not get it publish yet - I trust that statement.
If you are so dissatisfied with GHL why not sell all your GHL equipment and switch to Apex instead? You are a dissatisfied GHL customer, right or......
Sincerely Lasse
If you are so dissatisfied with GHL why not sell all your GHL equipment and switch to Apex instead? You are a dissatisfied GHL customer, right or......
Sincerely Lasse
What Sisterlemonpot said is exactly the problem.
First it was manufacturing supply issue then it was a design issue or probe issue so they were redesigning the unit then the problem became a patent issue. I have been doing this stuff longer than Matthias so I kind of know whats involved in this kind of project and I know from having being burned by past suppliers how to smell BS in the electronic manufacturing world from a mile away.
Whenever a company cannot demonstrate a single sample of a product it's always a bad sign!
I think that Vinny has video of a unit working but I have no idea at this point why they refuse to show it. I know it's not a Patent issue so there must be some other reason.
Hi Lasse
The problem we are having is that GHL has been giving us inconsistent information. The main issue has not been the actual release of the unit. We have been asking them for a video of a unit in operation and working and had been promised one by the end of September. It is now the end of October and GHL is telling us about Patent issues.
You regret that the comments were closed on the facebook post, it would be a shame if the same would happen here.
Let's stay constructive and positive
Gaël
I think you should remember that we are all doing GHL a courtesy by keeping this thread in the GHL section of the forum. If this was in the General Equipment or Controllers section it would get a lot more views than in here. Also it's really bad form to threaten customers with censorship when you already have their money.
It's more complex than boiling it down to the company and their competitors. I always dismiss arguments that if you don't like it use the competitor, or if you thought this situation was bad then look at how the competitor did when they promised "said" product. I view that as deflection and an attempt to dissuade conversation.
I'm simply pointing out their attempt of deception and how they deliberately tried to control the narrative to fit their agenda. Which is perfectly fine that's their prerogative but what I have a problem with is offering presales knowing full well that the product wasn't going to meet deadlines.
it seems that they weren't using presales to gauge interest as much as they needed that infusion of funds to continue development. It just seems extremely clear to me that in light of the current information that there was a lot of deception on their part.
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