Four weeks of cycling -- nitrites are 0, nitrates are at ~12, but ammonia won't drop.

bryanfuel

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So, as of today, I've:
  1. Turned off the skimmer completely for a week (didn't realize that was a thing with bacteria additives)
  2. Filtered with carbon for a week ahead of time (turned off now)
  3. Pumped 15 gallons (20%) out of the tank
  4. Carefully sifted about 15 dead snails out of the sand bed
  5. Added 15 gallons of fresh RODI saltwater, at the proper temp
  6. Waited a couple of hours for everything to stabilize
  7. Slowly poured a large (75 gallon size) bottle of BIO-Spira into the baffles in the sump, through the plastic bio balls and the ceramic rings
Now, I sit back and wait. Ammonia has remained at ~4 for a week now, although it did dip to 2 at one point, then climbed again, so I'm assuming the dead CUC was pushing it back up again.

Fingers crossed...

In the meantime, I've ordered some pure ammonia and a smaller bottle of bio-spira, and I'm going to empty out the QT and do a few experiments starting from a fresh tank to try to get a handle on all of this without the weirdness of the possibly dead live rock, the used sand and the dead CUC.

I know it's very tempting to constantly be testing and tweaking but sometimes the best thing for your tank is to just stay consistent with one plan and let the tank do its thing for a couple weeks. Patience is key.
 

White Hair

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I was just adding flake food daily for a week or so. I didn't have access to un-cooked shrimp.

The sand was kept wet in a bag, and the rock was wrapped in newspaper and kept damp, for ~week
didn’t have access??
 

BeejReef

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Sorry for your frustratingly slow start.
Sounds like you're taking a measured approach.
Remember, none of this is wasted time. The tank is maturing, cycling, curing... whatever you want to call it. When it finally finishes, the tank will be that much stronger for it.
 
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Yeah, I'm learning a ton the whole time, and I had planned on this first bit taking me a while.

It's an interesting puzzle, and in the meantime I've been able to work out things like my RODI system and ATO and sump and everything without endangering any living things, so it's a win overall, I think.
 

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Waiting is the hardest part of this hobby: waiting for the tank to cycle, waiting for diatoms and dinos to go away, waiting to add anemones, waiting to add the fish from quarantine to the display tank, waiting to add the harder corals, waiting to save up money to buy a new expensive gadget -- you get the point. I'm glad you have kept at it. This will be fun.
Waiting for tank to cycle.gif
 
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So much confusion.

The Seachem ammonia badge works properly in my QT, and shows it at 0 ammonia. If I drop it in the DT, it turns grey instead of yellow.

An API test shows me fluctuating between 2 and 4ppm on various days, which would make sense with that badge.

So I gave in and ordered a Salifert ammonia test, since everyone recommends them, and the result is <0.25ppm, I would say probably at around .12ppm.

Nitrites are back to 0, nitrates are at ~20, and alk and pH look good.

I would expect to start adding some cuc at this point, at least a couple of snails and maybe a hermit, but... There's no algae anywhere!
 
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BeejReef

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I'd probly lean towards the salifert and seachem... Both telling the same story, just a touch of ammonia. U have got to be close. 0 nitrite says your bac are good. Just must have some stuff still breaking down.
 

Salty Lemon

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An API test shows me fluctuating between 2 and 4ppm on various days, which would make sense with that badge.

I'd probly lean towards the salifert and seachem... Both telling the same story, just a touch of ammonia. U have got to be close. 0 nitrite says your bac are good. Just must have some stuff still breaking down.
I recently was fighting ammonia. The battle raged on for a long time and I couldn't figure out why it was so high in my established tank. I was using API test kits for my ammonia and nitrate testing. A friend on here suggested another brand test kit. I ordered Salifert since I use that brand for everything else, and the results were basically at zero. I have declared war on API because of all the worry and work I went through trying to get my ammonia down when it was the test kit itself.
 
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So, a bunch of lessons learned on this one.

I originally had a canister filter AND a HOB filter on this tank when I started cycling it. When I moved to the sump I pulled the bio media out of the canister and installed it in the baffles, but I think I lost a lot of good bacteria on the other pads/floss when I didn’t move those in as well.

This was when all of my algae died, along with my CUC, which sparked a still-going ammonia buildup.

Later on, I decided to turn off the HOB and just run the sump, which… Well, that also removed a bunch of filter pads which were probably full of good bacteria.

That’s a lot of changes, so it’s OK at the moment because I’m still just cycling, but I’ve learned that I can’t make changes like that when I have corals or fish in there.

I started a QT 2 weeks after the DT, and it’s completely cycled now, ready to roll — no ammonia and no nitrites. Nitrates are a little high, but nothing crazy.

Meanwhile, the DT is still at .02 ammonia….

In good news, the copper's all gone now.
 
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I've passed enough biospira for 170 gallons through this thing now, over a span of months. It's a 55 gallon tank with a 20 gallon sump, minus rock, air space in baffles, etc. Ammonia hasn't budged still -- I'm starting to wonder if maybe the guy I bought it from had some kind of crash and maybe the live rock was full of ammonia? And/or the sand?

Two of the bottles (140g worth) have been through just this setup with sump, no HOB or canister.

I'm starting to wonder, after starting up a blank tank 25g QT weeks later with the same RODI water and cycling much faster if I shouldn't just reset the big tank completely somehow.
 
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Here's a question...

Because my ammonia has been at .05 and not dropping to .02 or less, I haven't been adding more ammonia, thinking that I should wait for it to drop all the way first.

Should I be adding ammonia regularly anyway? Maybe .05 isn't enough to keep the bacteria growing?
 

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You're still using the Salifert ammonia test and the Seachem badge, right?

I'm not an expert, but it feels like your tank has to be cycled by now. I mean, unless there's cyanide or some wild contaminant in the water killing your bacteria.... it just has to be cycled. A dead lobster would have broken down into nitrate by now with no bottled bacteria.

Are you reading your Salifert test correctly... looking through the side with the vial held against the white area of the card? Also best done outdoors in natural sunlight. If you're in a room with off white, or pastel colored walls that's no good. Maybe you have unique eyes. I'd get an extra set of hands, run your test, an post up pictures for a consensus reading.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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is it true you are measuring cycling problems going on 90 days with this tank? Your tank was cycled the first day you added the bottle bac

I would be curious to know if no testing is factored going forward, if kits are simply stopped being used other than for temp, salinity, calcium and alk, how would the direction of this tank change?

since your cycle was ready the day you added the bottle bac, we're on a test verification run here
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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the state of our cycling assessment is so far off in the hobby that most people endure some sort of variation at some point because we're not using digital ammonia testing.

additions like Prime skew ammonia testing, sometimes causatives go unspoken but the system and timing is set, and does not ever last past a month if even that. You used bottle bac that gets things ready in one day.

There is no mechanism in reefing to allow for constant .25 or .5 ammonia after 30 days, it cannot occur, your testing is off in one or more ways. This example thread makes a perfect representation of why we must use biomarkers other than color interpretation testing to stamp a go date.


That your ammonia doesn't climb with an assumed daily input source + # of days underwater is sole proof you have nitrifiers, covering all surface area.



that item(s) cannot be luckily degrading at .5 a day, every day, ninety+ days they'd have to be on a peak/trough system since biomass itself is long degraded after 90 days. You have no source leaking such ammonia or the tank would smell horribly, and be cloudy. since cycled tanks can process easily more than 4 ppm a day, the source would have to be well above that. we know there is no such source this strong for this tank.

post pics pls


No reef with normal surface area can hover trace ammonia at .25 and .5, the additional proof is all seneye and mindstream users (digital ammonia measures) can agree on that fact.

Your tank is able to carry a bioload at this moment, that's the final call of a done/closed and complete cycle. very curious to see pics
 
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Thank you for that wall of text. I've been having those very thoughts in my head, but as a complete newcomer it's hard to trust your instincts when they feel like shortcuts. The only additional source of ammonia was the dead CUC, which was 45 assorted snails, ceriths and a couple of tiny hermits. It did bring the level up over 4 for a while -- my wife started cleaning them out while I was away, and didn't keep count, so there was no way for me to know how many were left in there. I pulled 8 more of them out this past weekend.

But you're totally right, of course, they would biodegrade to nothing in less than 60 days.

I'll attach way too many pictures here. I just did a fresh ammonia test, and I'm at <0.12, which is the second lowest level on the test. I *did* do a control test on tap water, which came out clear, at 0, to make sure the kit was good.

I don't plan on having more than a few fish, mostly for cleaning, and the rest of this tank will be coral (zoas to start). So there won't be a ton of fish poop in it, but I'm adding another 10 pounds of dry rock next week, I think.

These are the rocks:
IMG_1096.jpg

IMG_1097.jpg

IMG_1099.jpg


There are a couple of non-porous, decorative rocks:

IMG_1098.jpg


Here's a FTS:
IMG_1104.jpg


There's a little more rock in the refugium in the sump, along with some filter pads that I've replaced with something a little thicker to hold more bacteria:

IMG_1103.jpg


And here's the test, and the badge:

IMG_1106.jpg


IMG_1094.jpg


I have moved the same badge into the QT, where it registered zero, as well as tap water, where it also registered zero.

A copper test tonight showed that I've removed pretty much all of it now, it came out nice and clear.

Once again, I appreciate everyone's help. There must be nothing more frustrating than more cycling questions to people who've been around these forums for a while, so I apologize again for dragging people through this. I just don't want to kill anything!
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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if that was my tank Id simply change out all the water and add some motile creatures. not sure if copper will affect them its not common to have copper associated with displays for inverts but your medication plan may allow for that etc not sure on that part
 
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