Foxface with weird ulcer like spot on skin

[daniel_mourra]

Hello

My Foxface was in Copper Power Treatment (at 2.5 ppm) for 14 days due to an ich outbreak. During Copper Power Treatment i dosed the water with 200 miligrams of Nitrofurazone to avoid any bacterial infections and did 100% water changes every 3 days. The last day QT i noticed a spot like a wound on the left side of its body... dont know what it is... any ideas or suggestions?. Please see pictures...

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hello

My Foxface was in Copper Power Treatment (at 2.5 ppm) for 14 days due to an ich outbreak. During Copper Power Treatment i dosed the water with 200 miligrams of Nitrofurazone to avoid any bacterial infections and did 100% water changes every 3 days. The last day QT i noticed a spot like a wound on the left side of its body... dont know what it is... any ideas or suggestions?. Please see pictures...

Looks more like an injury from either object or strike from a tang. T prevent infection, I would quarantine and treat with Seachem kanaplex or maracyn 2 and increase oxygen with air stone

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

I agree, looks like an injury. Any tangs in with it?

If you were doing 100% water changes (not always the best thing to do) that implies you had to catch the fish up, so this could be an injury from that.

Copper Power needs to be run for 30 days in the case of active disease. You can sometimes get away with 21 days if there was no visible disease at the start.

Jay

 

[daniel_mourra]

Thank you both for the replys! I would like to reply to both:

@vetteguy53081 : Yes, it was living 14 days with a POWDER BROWN TANG following the ich treatment with copper power. It has been currently outside of the QT tank in a 45 gallon tank and I have been adding 25 mL of API MELAFIX + Seachem Stressguard daily (4th day today) in hopes of aliviating this injury.... do you think it might work? Are the other fish in that tank at risk?

@Jay Hemdal Yes... Copper Brown was with him and might have injured him. While catching the fish for the 100% water change i try to do it as carefully as possible but a am very new at the hobby and dont rule out that i might have hurt the fish somehow. Regarding running copper power (2.5ppm) for 30 days.... I was not aware it needed SO MUCH time... I only ran it for 14 days CLEAN (17 real days) as I followed a video from BRSTV called the 80/20 quarintine method where they recomend these 100% water changes and running copper for 14 days clean (starting to count on the first day with no symptoms) as they started that QT due to ICH. I will leave the link here: ; Does this mean that this method ilustrated in the video is not correct? Now i am afraid i did not erradicate Ich....from the fish... i currently have my MAIN DISPLAY TANK without fish 3 weeks.... and plan to leave it like that 11 weeks total according to that same video series from BRSTV....

Basically this is my complete story (its gonna be a long one but i REALLY need help here..... i am very new at the hobby) and i feel I've been bouncing all over the place:

January 11, 2023:
-I started a 200 Gallon Reef tank...
-Used coraline rock from a local beach (i live in the carribean) that i cured with Acid and Bleach and left under the sun for 2 weeks to remove all chlorine.
-Used live sand (aragonite crushed coral) from the same beach, unfortunatley due to lack of experience I did not treat the sand. Only left under the sun for the same 2 weeks.
-I started the cicle for the tank using the RED SEA MATURE KIT program (21 day program) but unfortunatley I followed the advice from a local reefer who convinced me to put fish since day 3 stating that "nothing bad would happen". I was not aware of QT procedures so i went ahead and put all the fish in including:
-Naso Tang (1)
-Powder Brown Tang (1)
-Sailfin Tang (1) - Looks weak upong arrival...
-FoxFace Rabbit Fish (1)
-Diamond Goby (1)
-Neon Engineer Goby (1)
-Coral Beauty Angelfish (1)
-Anthias Hutchi (1)
-Chromis Damsel (6)
-Lawnmower Blenny (1)
-Firefish (1)
-Royal Gramma (1)
-Yellow Tail Damsel (1)
-Six Line Wrasse (1)
-Mexican Turbo Snails (3)
-Conehead Snails (5)
-Emerald Crab; Green (2)
-Cleaner Skunk Shrimp (1)

January 15, 2023:
Sailfing Tang was swimming weak and was trapped by powerhead. Heavily injured. Was separated to Separate Tank.

January 16, 2023:
Added 44oz of Chemipure Blue Activated Carbon

January 17, 2023:
Sailfing Tang dies from injuries sustained on Jan 15.
Scared that ammonia levels might be rising, I added 40mL of Seachem Stability Bacteria while also continuing the RED SEA Mature Kit Program

January 18, 2023:
1 Chromis Damsel (smallest one of all) shows high sings of stress.. swiming vertically in DT corner.

January 21, 2023:
Added 200mL of Seachem purigen

January 22, 2023:
1 Chromis Damsel DIES (smallest one of all). She was showing signs of weakness and stress since Jan 18. A powerhead trapped her. Unknow if encounter with powerhead killed her o if she died and then was trapped by powerhead.

Lawnmower Blenny Dies misterously.... Unknown Causes is found dead in sandbed. He was not showing any signs of sickness..

Six Line Wrasse Starts acting weak and is shown with a blemish, bacterial infection or wound on top of head... looks like URONEMA but at that point I didnt even know Uronema Existed.... Took him out of DT and separated him to try to reduce stress...

Powder Brown Tang Starts flashing on rocks and showing white spots (ICH).... for the first time. THIS IS THE FIRST SIGN OF ICH IN THE TANK... Day 11 of new Tank.

January 23, 2023:
Six Line Wrasse Dies.... Probable Cause is wound in head (baterial infection? Uronema? Stress? Unknown)

Powder Brown is placed in separate QT Tank due to signs of ICH. 5mL of Ich-X (10 Gal tank). 20% Water changes daily before dosing ICH-X in accordance with IchX instructions.

January 24, 2023:
Turned ON for the first time the UV Filter (Coralife Turbo Twist 6X)
1 of the 5 remaning Chromis Damsels is detected with signs of URONEMA (small red sore on left side). Will be placed in QT next day.

Janaury 25, 2023:
Turned ON for the first time the REGAL 200 INT Skimmer
1 Chromis Damsel is removed to QT under URONEMA suspicion. Placed in QT with the Powder Brown Tang. Added 5mL of ICH-X to the 10 Gal Tank.

Janaury 26, 2023:
-Chromis Damsel died in QT after 24 hrs in QT tank. I suspect URONEMA. Dead with mouth WIDE OPEN. Blemish on the side just as described in @Jay Hemdal 's URONEMA article. After this I decided to place all 4 remaining Chromis in a separate QT tank as one more is also showing URONEMA signs. Added 2.5mL of Seachem PARAGUARD and feed METROPLEX bounded food once per day (2 more feedings unmedicated daily). Only 4 Chromis Left...

-Powder Brown stops showing signs of ICH in QT Tank... he is kept in QT as per ICH-X Instructions.

January 29, 2023:
-Powder Brown is returned to DT as ICH-X treatment is done. Ich is assumed to be eliminated after 6 days of treatment.

January 30, 2023:
Reef Mature Kit Cycling Program Ends

January 31, 2023:
Installed a 5 micron sediment filter as part of an effort of "ich management" according to BRSTV videos.

Feb 2, 2023:
Naso Tang is found very weak (still alive) hidden under a rock. Took him to a separate tank to treat.... Absolutley NO IDEA... what to do or what happened!

Feb 4, 2023:
Naso Tang dies without any signs of explanation of anything.. Was found very weak (still alive) hidden under a rock 2 days before. No idea what happened.

Feb 5, 2023:
-Chromis Damsel QT Tank 100% water change. Removed Biofilter and Mechanical Filtration. Added Airstone. Did a 3 min Freshwater bath as per BRSTV Recomendations for Uronema.
Same day at night another Chromis dies... no signs of uronema. but heavily bitten tail fin. Probably bullying and attacks from other 3 remaining damsels.

Started a NEW QT Tank due to ICH outbreak (again)...
-Powder Brown Tang with ICH (Again......)
-FoxFace now with ICH
-Coral Beauty Angelfish now with ICH
-Royal Gramma now with ICH
All in one QT Tank; No Bio Filter.
3 minute Freshwater Bath In accordance With BRSTV Videos between each water chance.
30 minute ICH X Bath in accordance with IchX Instructions
20% Water Change Daily in Accordance with IchX Instruccions

Feb 7, 2023:
Chromis Damsels are prematurely removed from QT due to high signs of bullying between them and returned to main DT. Prior to this, did a 3 minute freshwater bath for uronema. Added Seachem Stressguard to main DT for Chromis Damsels that were reintroduced to DT.

Feb 10, 2023:
Started POLYP LAD MEDIC Ich treatment as per manufacturers instructions in an effort to control Ich directly in the DT (Polyp Lab Medic is supposed to be Reef Safe). This treatment is supposed to be 10-15 days. In hopes of eliminating Ich in DT as this is the only REEF SAFE Ich medication i Found....

Feb 11, 2023:
-Powder Brown, FoxFace, Royal Gramma and Coral Beauty arereturned to DT as ICH-X treatment is done. Ich is assumed to be eliminated after 6 days of treatment.

Feb 20, 2023:
Royal Gramma starts showing heavy signs of stress in DT... swimming (sleeping) vertically in display tank corner... Unknown Causes...

Feb 21, 2023:
Started Feeding fish with MEDICATED FOOD (Metroplex and Focus) to assist with ich in accordance with Seachem instructions.

Feb 22, 2023:
Skunk Cleaner Shrimp Dies...
Final Emerald Crab Dies...
Both die under the SAME conditions.... Halfway through molting procedure. Why both the same day? Coincidence? Both died "Stuck" in their old molting bodies. Possible cause of death: Ate Medicated Food with metroplex?

Feb 24, 2023:
Turned OFF the UV Filter as per LFS recomendations to avoid it from interfeering with POLYP LAB MEDIC.

March 2, 2023:
Added 5 Coral Frags and Chaeto to refugium. (Dipped corals in Seachem Dip for 20 minutes and hydrogen peroxide 3:1 parts for 1.5 minutes and Chaeto in freshwater for 2 hours.)

March 3, 2023 in the morning:
Turned ON the UV Filter to try to imprive Ich situation as POWDER BROWN was showing alot of white spots and high signs of stress (swimming alot against the powerheads and return). Also Anthias Hutchi was spending the night almost vertical in a corner of the tank.

March 3, 2023 at Night:
Turned OFF the UV filter as per instructions of LFS to improve POLYP LAB MEDIC RESULTS. Started counting Polyp Lab Medic treatment again as day 0. Trippled the MEDIC dosis as per LFS and POLYP LAB instructions.

March 4, 2023:
Started another 7 days of medicated METROPLEX food (with FOCUS by seachem) by LFS recomendation as all the invertebrates have died.

March 6, 2023:
Anthias Hutchi DIES eventhough he was eating very well... after 3 days of showing sings of stress in swimming.

Alarms sound and Decide to go FALLOW today!. Gave up on polyp lab medic. Gave up on Ich Management.
Took all remaining fish out and started a QT process to actively treat Ich in 3 different QT Tanks using the "BRSTV 80/20 Quarintine Method for Ich Treatment" using 2.5ppm copper power and 20mg of Nitrofurazone per gallon of water and 100% water changes every 3 days.

TANK A - 10 Gal:
-Powder Brown (Ich Positive)
-Foxface (Ich Positive)
-Yellow Tail Damsel (No signs of Ich)
-Engineer Neon Goby (No Signs of Ich)
-Copper at 2.5ppm
-200mg of Nitrofurazone

TANK B - 10 Gal:
- 3 Chromis Damsels (No Signs of Ich)
-Firefish (No Signs of Ich)
-Diamond Goby (No Signs of Ich)
-Royal Gramma (No Signs of Ich)
-Copper at 2.5 ppm
-200mg of Nitrofurazone

TANK C - 3 Gal:
-Coral Beauty Angelfish (No Signs of Ich)
-Copper at 1.0 ppm and raising .25 daily UP TO 2.0 ppm max
-60mg of Nitrofurazone

March 7, 2023:
Firefish died after 24 in copper QT tank A. No apparent reason... Didnt resist copper? He was showing no sings of ich or any other desease.

March 9, 2023:
First 100% Water change to all 3 QT Tanks (Day 3 in QT)

March 12, 2023:
Second 100% Water change to all 3 QT Tanks (Day 6 in QT)

March 15, 2023:
Third 100% Water change to all 3 QT Tanks (Day 9 in QT)

March 16, 2023:
-Purchased New Fish, which I will place in QT as now I have learned my lesson:
(6) Bangai Cardinal Fish (No visible signs of desease)
(1) Bi Color Angelfish (No visible signs of desease)
(1) Scoopas Tang (No visible signs of desease)
(1) Blue Hippo Tang (No visible signs of desease)
(1) Skunk Cleaner Shrimp (Acclimated and added directly to Fallow DT)
(2) Emerald Red Crab (New) (Acclimated and added directly to Fallow DT)
(1) Long Tentacled Colored Anemome (Acclimated and added directly to Fallow DT)

Placed the new fish in 2 NEW QT Tanks:

TANK D - 10 GAL:
(6) Bangai Cardinal Fish (No visible signs of desease)
(1) Scoopas Tang (No visible signs of desease)
(1) Blue Hippo Tang (No visible signs of desease)
-Copper at 2.5ppm
-200mg of Nitrofurazone

TANK E - 5 GAL:
(1) Bi Color Angelfish (No visible signs of desease)
-Copper at 1.0 ppm and raising .25 daily UP TO 2.0 ppm max
-100mg of Nitrofurazone

March 17, 2023:
Bengai Cardinal Dies 12 hrs after being placed in QT.. (5 left)

March 19, 2023:
Fourth 100% Water change to all 5 QT Tanks (A B C - Day 12 in QT and Tank D and E - Day 3 in QT)

March 20, 2023:
Bengai Cardinal Dies 12 hrs after water change... (4 left) ; Mouth Wide Open, Gills stuck open...

March 22, 2023:
QT in Tanks A B C Day 14 Ends. All 14 Day clean Fish (3 Damsels, Diamond Goby, Coral Beauty, Yellow Tail Damsel) are removed from QT and added to a 55 Gallon Holding Tank with New Sand (This time i Boiled it) and new Rock (Same procedure as last time) and started dosing Seachem Stability Bacteria for the next 7 days to establish Biofilter. Added Heater and Small Powerhead. They will remain here for 2 months until main DT fallow period ends.

Powder Brown, Fox Face and Neon Engineer are left behind in QT for 3 more days to complete their 14 day CLEAN cycle in QT.

Second 100% Water change to QT Tank D and E - Day 6 in QT

March 23, 2023:
Bengai Cardinal Dies 12 hrs after water change (again....) ... (3 left) ; Mouth Wide Open, Gills stuck open... same conditions...

Small ulcer like injury appears on left side of FoxFace body while still in QT tank. Round in shape. Looks like a wound from Powder Brown?

March 24, 2023:
QT for Powder Brown, Foxface and Neon Engineer Day 14 CLEAN Ends. All 3 fish are removed from QT and added to the 55 Gallon Holding Tank with the rest of the crew. They will remain here for 2 months until main DT fallow period ends.

March 25, 2023:
Third 100% Water change to QT Tank D and E - Day 9 in QT
One of the 3 Chromis Damsels shows alot of missing scales. May be bullying? Doesnt look like Uronema as it is evenly distribuited in both sides of body.

March 27, 2023:
Bengai Cardinal Dies 36 hrs after water change (again....) ... (2 left); Mouth Wide Open, Gills stuck open... same conditions...

-----------------------

Current Status:
-DT is Fallow only with corals and invertebrates. 9 weeks left.
-QT Tank D (Blue Hippo doing great, Scopas Tang Doing Great, 2 Bangai Cardinals left....) Copper 2.5 ppm - 4 more days left.
-QT Tank E (Bi color Angel Fish, eating very little but no signs of desease) Copper 2.0 ppm - 4 more days left.
-55 Gal Holding Tank (Foxface with wound injury, Powder Brown doing great, Diamond Goby doing great, Neon Engineer doing great, Coral Beauty doing great, Royal Gramma doing great and Yellow Tail Damsel Doing Great. 3 Chromis Damsels 2 of which doing great... 1 with alot of missing scales.....; Currently dosing MELAFIX and Stressguard due to this...

I know this was a VERY large post.... i am overwhelmed as you can see.... any advice????

What do I do with FOXFACE?
What do i do with CHROMIS?
What is killing the BENGAI CARDINALS????

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry, although your log is very detailed, as they say, TMI !

What I generally find is that complicated situations do not have a single cause, usually there are multiple issues in play. Let’s go back to the original issue: is the lesion on the foxface unchanged? If so, I’d stick with the idea that this is an injury. It will likely heal with no treatment.
As far as the BRS video, it isn’t wrong, it just isn’t as correct as it could be. They even start off saying it is an 80:20 process. They know they are cutting corners to save effort. Actually though, cutting the copper time down is a mistake, why cut corners there when it increases the chance of an infection getting carried over? It’s just 14 days for extra safety.
Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

I would Not break the copper cycle , at least no sooner than 21 -25 days. As for your questions-
I have been adding 25 mL of API MELAFIX + Seachem Stressguard daily (4th day today) in hopes of aliviating this injury.... do you think it might work?
I hate to say but both are useless. Melafix is tea tree oil and sort of works in freshwater but not in saltwater, Stress guard does not meet its claim and is neither a calmer or sedative but a mild antiseptic which rarely works

Are the other fish in that tank at risk? All fish are at risk. . to injury, disease and stress. Most are wild caught and are taken from environment which we do our best to replicate and offer a suitable diet and water conditions

 

[daniel_mourra]

Thank you @Jay Hemdal and @vetteguy53081 both for your very frank response. As both of you say… i broke the copper cycle 15 days before…. Should I put them BACK to copper for another 15 days? Or do i have to place them a new 30 day cycle?

also… any suggestions on the begai cardinals? I am lossing 1 every 3 days and i have NO idea why……

as far as the Melafix and Stressguard… I am disapponted to read that they are pretty much useless.. does this mean i should apply kannaplex then?

 

[C4ctus99]

Belated welcome to R2R! I’m sorry you’ve been going through a lot, sounds like a fast hard start with no real experience which can definitely be overwhelming.
From what I’ve seen of jay and vetteguy’s posts, kanaplex is for bacterial infections (one of them will set me straight I’m sure)

10 gallon quarantine tanks are pretty small, especially for the number of fish you were putting in them. I am currently quarantining 2 clowns and a coral beauty in a 20 long and I would not want many more fish than that in there. Confined spaces and lots of tankmates combined leads to stress for the fish, stress leads to disease.

As to the cardinals, wish I had more experience and could help better, Jay normally says open mouths can indicate oxygen issues, do you have air stones or any supplemental question in your QT tanks? Did you put stability in all your QT tanks or have biological filtration already in place? Have you tested for amonia?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you @Jay Hemdal and @vetteguy53081 both for your very frank response. As both of you say… i broke the copper cycle 15 days before…. Should I put them BACK to copper for another 15 days? Or do i have to place them a new 30 day cycle?

also… any suggestions on the begai cardinals? I am lossing 1 every 3 days and i have NO idea why……

as far as the Melafix and Stressguard… I am disapponted to read that they are pretty much useless.. does this mean i should apply kannaplex then?

One trick you can try with the copper is to take it back up to a full dose for 72 hours and then move the fish out while under a full dose. That eliminates the theront stage.

As far as the Banggai cardinals go - do you know if they were wild caught or tank raised? The wild caught one are really delicate due to a specific viral disease that they get.

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thank you @Jay Hemdal and @vetteguy53081 both for your very frank response. As both of you say… i broke the copper cycle 15 days before…. Should I put them BACK to copper for another 15 days? Or do i have to place them a new 30 day cycle?

also… any suggestions on the begai cardinals? I am lossing 1 every 3 days and i have NO idea why……

as far as the Melafix and Stressguard… I am disapponted to read that they are pretty much useless.. does this mean i should apply kannaplex then?

You in essence broke the treatment cycle/clock and will have to start again for 30 days. Kanaplex better.
Jay mentioned the 72 hr dosage regimen. I have not done it, but makes sense

 

[Jay Hemdal]

You in essence broke the treatment cycle/clock and will have to start again for 30 days. Kanaplex better.
Jay mentioned the 72 hr dosage regimen. I have not done it, but makes sense

That is definitely not the preferred course of action, just something that could be tried if there were some compelling reason that the clock simply cannot be restarted.

Jay

 

[Weeb]

I was not aware it needed SO MUCH time

It doesn't. I've had success eliminating Cryptocaryon irritans (Marine Ich) in a QT in 14 days after attaining therapeutic levels. This isn't a popular recommendation on R2R. But it does work.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It doesn't. I've had success eliminating Cryptocaryon irritans (Marine Ich) in a QT in 14 days after attaining therapeutic levels. This isn't a popular recommendation on R2R. But it does work.

I have to take exception to your statement: ionic copper treatments can be run for as little as 14 days beyond the date the last spots were seen, but amine-based copper products, as they are milder, need to be run longer. Remember that copper does NOT kill tomonts. If you run copper for a mere 14 days, there is a very good chance that when you drop the copper level back down, there will still be tomonts viable enough to release theronts, and the whole infection starts up again.

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

It doesn't. I've had success eliminating Cryptocaryon irritans (Marine Ich) in a QT in 14 days after attaining therapeutic levels. This isn't a popular recommendation on R2R. But it does work.

Based on life cycle of irritants and Cysts- absolutely disagree and because you dont see them does not notate a complete treatment as they will drop off and release new cysts which too will seek a host and reproduce which is why often people will say they dropped off and came back. They never left completely

 

[Weeb]

when you drop the copper level back down,

I don't drop the copper down. I move the fish to a new QT, w/o copper for observation.

Take all the exception you want. It works.

 

[daniel_mourra]

I am Happy to inform the Foxface is getting better from its ulcer like wound! Thank you @Jay Hemdal and @vetteguy53081 ! As you said it was just a matter of time and probably a strike from the powder brown tang. Now I have a new problem with a chromis damsel fish.. I will be creating a new post thread, hopefully you could help me? Thank you!

 

[SPS2020]

My Bristletooth consistently harasses my Foxface and has lesions like that. I wish his spines were more poisonous! GRRRR

 

[daniel_mourra]

Progress report! @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081
He is now a but depressed…. Pictures are from 2 days ago… but he has been 2 days very sad hidding not coming out….. he eats nori and goes back to hidding with his camouflage colours….

got me a bit worried…

 

[vetteguy53081]

Progress report! @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081
He is now a but depressed…. Pictures are from 2 days ago… but he has been 2 days very sad hidding not coming out….. he eats nori and goes back to hidding with his camouflage colours….

got me a bit worried…

Looks like a scar/blemish from an injury. Reminds me of a tail strike from a tang especially if there’s one in thee tank. At this time, keep an eye on it. Should it become red or infected, would then require treatment. Wouldn’t be a bad idea to grab seachem kanaplex to have on hand in case needed for treatment

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Progress report! @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081
He is now a but depressed…. Pictures are from 2 days ago… but he has been 2 days very sad hidding not coming out….. he eats nori and goes back to hidding with his camouflage colours….

got me a bit worried…

It looks like the injury is healing. I can't account for the depressed behavior, something else must be going on. Could it be that the tang that caused this injury is now causing the foxface to stay more in hiding?

Jay