G5 or Sky?

Jon's Reef

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See, that’s something you can’t do through Mobius: switch between presets or templates. You’re basically stuck with utilizing one template over a predefined period. It would literally take hours to setup something similar for Radions, requiring you to set each template, jot down all the numbers, figure out the % for each time of day in a spreadsheet and then manually create a new template. And do this all over every time you want to make a change.
I see some potential with Mobius, hopefully they can add some sensors to make it a full solution.

The thing I really like about the Sky is it is just easy to switch presets and setup a schedule. Also, it is nice that you can adjust it on a computer through Fusion.
 

nornicle

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Depends on your needs - if low noise and you aren’t going to be changing it all the time, and design and looks/ t5 type no shadowing lighting is good for you then the ATI Straton - I use this in my living room as it has zero sound and does everything i need - it’s value goes up the closer you can get to 30”x30” squares to light (I run three across a 60”x30” patch lol…).

g5s are great for the light spectrum and power, but I hate the fan sound (I use these on my frag tank). Have no comment on sky except I worry about Neptune reliability.
 

SuncrestReef

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#reefsquad
Anyone know what size the female tapping is, on the Sky to screw hardware into? Same as the radions I guess too.
The SKY uses standard M5 machine screws.
 

rtparty

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G5 is still new, I wouldn't consider them proven yet. Let's seen some G5 tanks with dinner plate size colonies grown from frags under them. Then they are proven.

There are loads of them out there. WWC has multiple systems under them with massive colonies. The BRS750 started with G4 but swtiched to G5s shortly after and they have some good stuff going on. To say the G5s aren't proven is a little silly.

BTW I sold all my Radions (G4 and G5) to go back to halides so I have no bias here. No LED keeps up with my halides
 
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Ryan Doolittle

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There are loads of them out there. WWC has multiple systems under them with massive colonies. The BRS750 started with G4 but swtiched to G5s shortly after and they have some good stuff going on. To say the G5s aren't proven is a little silly.

BTW I sold all my Radions (G4 and G5) to go back to halides so I have no bias here. No LED keeps up with my halides
Takes more than 18 months to call anything proven. At this point things are looking good.
 

rtparty

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Takes more than 18 months to call anything proven. At this point things are looking good.
Where does "18 months" come from? I could say more than 12 months. I could say more than 60 months.

It is all arbitrary really. If a light is growing and coloring coral for even 6 months, why would it change at month 13 or 18 or 24? $100 black boxes are growing coral jsut fine. ANY of the decent to high end lights will grow coral too
 

Jon's Reef

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"Proven" is a slippery slope. Both the "amount of time" is discretionary.... But also the definition of "proven". At what date do you define the hardware issues were resolved (Case issue)? To this day I still see posts about Mobius issues with the lighting schedule. Even people who it was working fine for months... then stops working (latest theory being connectivity to the internet a possible cause). In the end it is the total solution... hardware + software.
 

rtparty

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I think they’re referring to the light being on the market for 18 months - not necessarily in-use for 18 months.

Even then, what is the magic number before we can say something is "proven" and how do we decide that number?

If growing a frag into a dinner plate sized colony is the metric used, G5s have done this. Almost every light on the market has done this.
 
BRS

rtparty

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Past the initial warranty.

So, my Sicce return pumps aren't proven until after 5 years? Honestly, not trying to argue. Just trying to understand and have a good conversation.

For lighting, it seems that coral growth and health must surpass a certain time frame before we can say a light is proven. Hard to quantify that when corals are some of the most adaptable creatures on earth.

As for reliability, I don't expect any LED fixture to last more than 5 years. Most should last beyond the (ridiculous) 1 year warranty. Tullio talks about LED spectrum shift at year 4 and usually full failure around year 5. Some seem to last much longer than this but others seem to fall well short.
 

areefer01

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As for reliability,

Let us ignore this for a minute.

I don't expect any LED fixture to last more than 5 years.

This is actually an interesting statement and not far off from the truth. But it depends:

Many LED's have a rated life cycle or expectancy. Some say it is 20,000 minimum and a maximum of 50,000 hours. Pretty large gap if you ask me but I'm sure quality of several components are factors in this end number. Also I'd wager there is a decrease of efficiency over those hours.

Back to reliability and quality though I would wager a lot of the final numbers on how long it lasts are related to the LED's used, manufactures estimates, thermal management, power, etc. Then some math and finally a warranty is yielded. 1 year seems normal, more in some cases. We are getting wrapped up on this but then our displays are 30 days, 1 year, and in some rare cases lifetime if their stand is used, etc. Just an example.

Nice point though on "more than" because there are factors that support that thought.
 

Jon's Reef

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Then some math and finally a warranty is yielded.
Warranty is often defined more economically. If you are an established company following correct accounting guidelines, a portion of the light price needs to be set aside for the term of the warranty. So for example, on a $900 fixture, say 1-5% might be set aside. That money does not count as revenue until the warranty is complete. The percentage is calculated based on actuarial statistics, similar to insurance. In simple terms.... I sell 10k units. of those, it is calculated that 1% may experience an issue within a given period. This is based on accelerated testing conditions, avg life of components, etc. The average cost of repair is then estimated. All of this goes into that % that is set aside.

Warranty costs also must account for the service group, stock (both components and full units) that must be held on to for the warranty duration. For example, Abyzz with a 10 yr warranty would need to ensure that they can provide parts for repair for the full 10 yrs after the last unit is sold. If they come out with a new pump (ex. A250 vs A200), the A200 needs to be supported. If not... well then they are going to pay big time when 9 years when they have to start replacing the old units with full new ones. So it is not as simple as ... "If the unit lasts 5 years a company incurs no additional costs for a 5 vs 1 year warranty".

Now if you are a smaller company... they may not care as much. LLC means they can just declare bankruptcy and be done with it.

On the other hand a big company may either have certain global conditions (ex EU requires a minimum 2 year warranty on all goods) or in the case of Philips... the CC is based on the Gentlespace Gen3 which actually has a 5 year standard warranty in its industrial lighting incarnation. I wouldn't be surprised if some large companies have an umbrella style insurance policy to cover excessive warranty costs.

The terms of a warranty are also very important. For example, Ecotech requires that the G5 is registered within 30 days of purchase or the warranty is void. For Kessil, you only get the longer warranty if you register. The registration is essentially locking that unit to the initial purchaser. This is an interesting caveat of the general Neptune warranty. They do not require registration. If you do not have proof of purchase, it will be 1 year from date of manufacture. In one of the other threads we uncovered that the GNC lights from Italy actually have warranty terms requiring the customer to cover shipping both ways to the factory... in Italy! Imagine if that Sicce 5 year pump warranty required shipping to Italy and back!

So lots of things go into the warranty. Not just "I feel like 3 years" or "The warranty represents how long the manufacturer expects the unit to last". In business terms "At the end of the day...." companies typically follow what the market has established as the standard warranty. They then adjust based on local economic or marketing conditions. For reef lighting (and most consumer electronics), 1 year is the standard.
 

Kfactor

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Buy what you like and what catches your eye . I went with halides on my new build but I really like them . But what ever you pick you will be happy with and there all in the same price range anyway . I think when I change out my lights down the road I really want to try the stratons. I wish kessil would try out a panel light and hope they do
 
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rtparty

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Let us ignore this for a minute.



This is actually an interesting statement and not far off from the truth. But it depends:

Many LED's have a rated life cycle or expectancy. Some say it is 20,000 minimum and a maximum of 50,000 hours. Pretty large gap if you ask me but I'm sure quality of several components are factors in this end number. Also I'd wager there is a decrease of efficiency over those hours.

Back to reliability and quality though I would wager a lot of the final numbers on how long it lasts are related to the LED's used, manufactures estimates, thermal management, power, etc. Then some math and finally a warranty is yielded. 1 year seems normal, more in some cases. We are getting wrapped up on this but then our displays are 30 days, 1 year, and in some rare cases lifetime if their stand is used, etc. Just an example.

Nice point though on "more than" because there are factors that support that thought.
Loads of variables, for sure.

I can't remember which "expert" was talking about it but the real issue usually isn't the LED itself failing after X hours. Many of the components used can't last the same time an LED can and this causes an issue that tends to compound into total failure. Again, not always but pretty common.

Some lights use these components as a total lifeline too. For example, fans for cooling. This isn't new to any specific LED either. ATI has relied on fans for close to two decades now. If those fans fail or weren't even set to the proper speed, the failure rate on ballasts and bulbs was astronomical. Sometimes it wasn't even the fan itself that failed. We see this in LEDs today too that rely on fans.

What's even more troubling is seeing some companies not even protecting the internals with any coating or water resistance. Again, not new or pointing out any one fixture.

I'm old school and simple. I'd rather change a bulb every 18 months and MAYBE a ballast every 5-7 years compared to entire panels that cost $900 and rising.
 

rtparty

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Buy what you like and what catches your eye . I went with halides on my new build but I really like them . But what ever you pick you will be happy with and there all in the same price range anyway . I think when I change out my lights down the road I really want to try the stratons. I wish kessil would try out a panel light and hope they do

Straton looks great!

I've been asking for a Kessil that basically uses a bunch of A80s or 160s in one fixture. Like 8 pucks in the AP style light. You could put reflectors on the outside pucks to keep light in the tank even. Or put narrow reflectors on certain pucks when you need to get some extra light down low for a clam, for example. Kessil has the diodes for one of the best LED spectrums out there and they have arguably the best control system with Kessil logic. They need to move away from puck style lights though
 

blaxsun

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So, my Sicce return pumps aren't proven until after 5 years? Honestly, not trying to argue. Just trying to understand and have a good conversation.

For lighting, it seems that coral growth and health must surpass a certain time frame before we can say a light is proven. Hard to quantify that when corals are some of the most adaptable creatures on earth.

As for reliability, I don't expect any LED fixture to last more than 5 years. Most should last beyond the (ridiculous) 1 year warranty. Tullio talks about LED spectrum shift at year 4 and usually full failure around year 5. Some seem to last much longer than this but others seem to fall well short.
It's a valid point. I think Sicce is the exception in giving you a 3-year warranty with another +2-year warranty when you register online. I mean, I wish I could get longer warranties with a lot of my gear - it's just not in the cards.

Right now most of the short-term info we have are from the SKY "beta testers" (if you will), as it's only been out for a few months. And we've got lots of people who have purchased the SKY as their first LED, so they don't necessarily have a frame of reference on how it compares to Radions (etc.). Many Radion (etc.) owners will also only look at switching when it becomes absolutely necessary to replace a light (since you're taking a hit selling used - even relatively new), so we're not going to have a lot of comparisons from people who've switched for probably a good 6-12 months.
 

areefer01

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It's a valid point. I think Sicce is the exception in giving you a 3-year warranty with another +2-year warranty when you register online. I mean, I wish I could get longer warranties with a lot of my gear - it's just not in the cards.

Right now most of the short-term info we have are from the SKY "beta testers" (if you will), as it's only been out for a few months. And we've got lots of people who have purchased the SKY as their first LED, so they don't necessarily have a frame of reference on how it compares to Radions (etc.). Many Radion (etc.) owners will also only look at switching when it becomes absolutely necessary to replace a light (since you're taking a hit selling used - even relatively new), so we're not going to have a lot of comparisons from people who've switched for probably a good 6-12 months.

There are some NSI members going as far back as January 2021. You are correct in that the more recent group started in June.
 
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