gha fades with nitrate and phos dosing

t5Nitro

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Wondering if this is typical. 6mo tank developed some cyano and GHA. Dosing nitrate and phos, no3 still undetectable despite increasing volumes of dosing. Phos around 0.03. Cyano has been pretty much gone. Gha seems to fade more and more by the day the more I dose NO3 and phos to the point the areas cleared without any mechanical removal the rocks appear very clean.

Not sure it I should keep dosing increasing amounts of NO3 until its detectable? Dosing enough to raise tank 5ppm daily and consistent read of 0. Thought it anything it would have fueled a worse GHA outbreak.
 

AmaleeC

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Maybe the type of cyano and GHA you have develop from low nitrates/phosphates, this is most likely the reason any reef owner doesn’t want them to hit 0.
 

Dan_P

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Wondering if this is typical. 6mo tank developed some cyano and GHA. Dosing nitrate and phos, no3 still undetectable despite increasing volumes of dosing. Phos around 0.03. Cyano has been pretty much gone. Gha seems to fade more and more by the day the more I dose NO3 and phos to the point the areas cleared without any mechanical removal the rocks appear very clean.

Not sure it I should keep dosing increasing amounts of NO3 until its detectable? Dosing enough to raise tank 5ppm daily and consistent read of 0. Thought it anything it would have fueled a worse GHA outbreak.
I believe that @Lasse doses nitrate and phosphate to reverse cyanobacteria growth.
 

Ike

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Be careful, you're probably driving down PO4 by dosing the nitrate. When PO4 gets too low things start to die, and if you're at .03 on a checker, you're about there. This is one of the reasons I don't not suggest dosing PO4, NO3 or carbon dosing to anyone that doesn't have a good handle on the bacteriological effects and the potential to drive both nutrients too low. You need more fish and/or more food for your fish.

A tank totally devoid of cyano and not much algae growth was always one of my indications that nutrients are getting too low to have coral health, particularly with fast growing SPS. My other indicator corals was orange caps, they would always fade when nutrients got too low.

Let's not forget people, if you don't have some decent algae growth, your corals probably aren't getting what they need either.
 
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t5Nitro

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It's easy enough to increase my phos dosing. I used to have it at 0.06 by ulr checker. Otherwise the original plan was to increase bioload. Any recommendations for the number or types of smaller fish to add? 75g display, around 90g total volume. Tank has medium sized yellow and purple tangs 1 each as well as 2 clowns. Feeding nori daily, NLS pellets few pinches daily plus or minus LRS reef frenzy about every other day.
 

Lasse

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Cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates is one thing - real GHA is another. However - I have seen suspected cyanobacteria (no mat builders) being - IMO - misidentified as GHA. If your "GHA" seems to disappear now as you dose both NO3 and PO4 - it could probably be one or another form of benthic cyanobacteria.

It seems like your aquarium is N- limited in growth - there NO3 is only one of the useful N sources you can have. Normally - as long as I can see a cyano/dino outbreak - I prefer NO3 as N source (of some reasons) When I have get that problem under control - I would prefer other N sources too (still having NO3 as left over) and a higher feed input. Nori is an excellent source of N as an exemple. Other fish - take a look at my aquarium - its a 80 gallon display and have a lot of smaller fishes that you can have together with your fish.

Be careful, you're probably driving down PO4 by dosing the nitrate.
Because you probably have a N limited system - I agree to 100 % - but it seems that you that part under control.

Let's not forget people, if you don't have some decent algae growth, your corals probably aren't getting what they need either.
I agree 100 % according to micro and macro algae - However - cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates are a different question - I always want to minimize them to near 0

Sincerely Lasse
 
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t5Nitro

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I'll show you guys a photo of the algae and a picture of some mushroom corals which I'd expect to be some of the hardiest of the corals in the tank. Very clearly the algae on the flat rock seems to lose chunks with each day of dosing NO3 and phos. The second picture of the mushrooms is kind of what many of the lps are doing in the tank, just seem to be smaller than usual or not fully extended. Usually those mushrooms are far extended past the feather dusters. Is this unusual or pretty typical when dosing?

20200604_163250.jpg 20200604_163304.jpg
 

Ike

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I'll show you guys a photo of the algae and a picture of some mushroom corals which I'd expect to be some of the hardiest of the corals in the tank. Very clearly the algae on the flat rock seems to lose chunks with each day of dosing NO3 and phos. The second picture of the mushrooms is kind of what many of the lps are doing in the tank, just seem to be smaller than usual or not fully extended. Usually those mushrooms are far extended past the feather dusters. Is this unusual or pretty typical when dosing?

20200604_163250.jpg 20200604_163304.jpg

What I see there lends to the likeliness that along with the algae suffering from being N limited, so are your corals. N limited causes some stress and minor problems from what I've seen and most corals seems to handle it well overall, I believe P limited causes serious damage that can be a slow recovery. This is purely from a lot of time and observation in the hobby and dealing with low nutrient systems for many years; N reading undetectable can still often lead to fantastic coral health and growth but is worth monitoring, P being too low and being limited wreaks havoc.
 

LRT

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Some great info @Lasse and @Ike.
I recently ran my system to 0 nitrates but was sitting at .025 phosphates.
I accidentally overdosed my nitrates to undetectable high levels and in turn depleted my phosphates to 0.
In turn experienced a super massive algae growth explosion that I've been slowly getting control of over the last Cpl weeks. As well as nitrates in check currently sitting 15-20 ppm and not budging for anything!
Can one of you gentlemen tell me was it the high nitrates that caused the insane algae growth? Or was it depleting my system of phosphates to 0 during the nitrate overdose?

How does it work? Do nitrates eat phosphates? Do soft corals tissue uptake these nutrients faster than hard corals in reference to calcium uptake?

I just dont get the chemistry of what's happening.
 

Ike

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Some great info @Lasse and @Ike.
I recently ran my system to 0 nitrates but was sitting at .025 phosphates.
I accidentally overdosed my nitrates to undetectable high levels and in turn depleted my phosphates to 0.
In turn experienced a super massive algae growth explosion that I've been slowly getting control of over the last Cpl weeks. As well as nitrates in check currently sitting 15-20 ppm and not budging for anything!
Can one of you gentlemen tell me was it the high nitrates that caused the insane algae growth? Or was it depleting my system of phosphates to 0 during the nitrate overdose?

How does it work? Do nitrates eat phosphates? Do soft corals tissue uptake these nutrients faster than hard corals in reference to calcium uptake?

I just dont get the chemistry of what's happening.

Pure speculation here, but consider if you disrupted things enough to throw off the growth of your corals and the balance of the system it might be the tug of war between the corals and the algae and perhaps the event led to far less consumption of nutrients by your corals. Extra N would certainly be more likely, though I don't find that level of nitrate to be problematic with a proper cleanup crew and mix of herbivores.
 

LRT

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Pure speculation here, but consider if you disrupted things enough to throw off the growth of your corals and the balance of the system it might be the tug of war between the corals and the algae and perhaps the event led to far less consumption of nutrients by your corals. Extra N would certainly be more likely, though I don't find that level of nitrate to be problematic with a proper cleanup crew and mix of herbivores.
Thanks Ike it's probably all of the above honestly. When I say overdosed nitrates it was undetectable off the red sea chart(fluorescent purple) for a good week before I caught it.
I do have it reading at 15-20 nitrates now after probably close to a 95 % water change.
My phosphates are at 0 but I just got some potassium phosphate and a good test kit that I'm going to slowly dose to get back to detectable levels.
 

Ike

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Thanks Ike it's probably all of the above honestly. When I say overdosed nitrates it was undetectable off the red sea chart(fluorescent purple) for a good week before I caught it.
I do have it reading at 15-20 nitrates now after probably close to a 95 % water change.
My phosphates are at 0 but I just got some potassium phosphate and a good test kit that I'm going to slowly dose to get back to detectable levels.

That can work, and that's what I've used in the past, but honestly, I feel the the best solution by far is feeding more and adding fish if you can.
 

LRT

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That can work, and that's what I've used in the past, but honestly, I feel the the best solution by far is feeding more and adding fish if you can.
Thanks Ike greatly appreciated! Yeah I've been struggling with my particular system. It's a shallow table diy build. 4 tables up top with 300 lbs of live rock in 130 gallon combined reservoir on the bottom.
I'd like to go all natural. I cant add fish up top although I do have a table converted to house my clown fish because I have the room. Afraid of any other fish jumping honestly.
I have 2 clown fish and a copper banded butterfly in the res to keep aiptasia in check.
My build thread is linked somewhere where me name is. Would you mind jumping over and letting me know your thought on what kind of fish I could add to the reservoirs or tables safely without losing them?
Also I seen nori mentioned here for nitrates. I've been dosing sodium nitrates for nitrates but I'd rather lose the chemicals of I can make this work naturally!
20200517_104459.jpg
 

Lasse

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I'll show you guys a photo of the algae and a picture of some mushroom corals which I'd expect to be some of the hardiest of the corals in the tank. Very clearly the algae on the flat rock seems to lose chunks with each day of dosing NO3 and phos. The second picture of the mushrooms is kind of what many of the lps are doing in the tank, just seem to be smaller than usual or not fully extended. Usually those mushrooms are far extended past the feather dusters. Is this unusual or pretty typical when dosing?

20200604_163250.jpg 20200604_163304.jpg
I can´t exclude that it is a type of cyanobacteria. According to the mushrooms (and the euphyllia in the left picture) - they seems to be limited/influenced by something, If your "GHA" in reality is a cyanobacteria it can be of the type that use chemical warfare - I have seen it sometimes. Please try to validate your readings of PO4 and NO3. Not because that I think they are wrong - just for role out that reason. If your "GFA" keep fading away - you doing some things right - keep on with that


What I see there lends to the likeliness that along with the algae suffering from being N limited, so are your corals. N limited causes some stress and minor problems from what I've seen and most corals seems to handle it well overall, I believe P limited causes serious damage that can be a slow recovery. This is purely from a lot of time and observation in the hobby and dealing with low nutrient systems for many years; N reading undetectable can still often lead to fantastic coral health and growth but is worth monitoring, P being too low and being limited wreaks havoc.

N useful in the photosynthesis is not only NO3-N. It is NH3/NH4 , NOx and amino acids too. Even if you have zeroed the NO3-N - there could be plenty of other N sources for the photosynthetic process. sources that you do not measure normally. For the use of P in that process - only PO4 is useful. IMO - the only way (for the moment) to know if a system really suffer from a N-limitation is to use Tritons N-doc that measure the whole contain of available N for photosynthesis.

In turn experienced a super massive algae growth explosion
Do you have a photo or can you describe the "algae" growth. As you describe what´s happens - my thoughts go more into the cyanobactera/dinoflagellates region.

Sincerely Lasse
 
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t5Nitro

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@Lasse I used new hannah checker phos reagent box and came out with 0.02 today on that.

I also tried a new api nitrate kit today since I had 2 on hand and came out with 5ppm on that.

Tank continues to clear with dosing. Corals are surviving alright but definitely doesnt look like anybody is thriving. That's interesting cyano may resemble GHA and if there is any chemical irritation on the corals. Prior to the "gha" I did have a red cyano outbreak I attributed to new tank. It didnt last too long before the green hairy stuff set in.

Will increase my phos amount today and check again tomorrow. Reef roids also coming today which I will start feeding that and see if that can raise some nutrients as well.
 

92Miata

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How does it work? Do nitrates eat phosphates? Do soft corals tissue uptake these nutrients faster than hard corals in reference to calcium uptake?

I just dont get the chemistry of what's happening.
I don't think anyone answered this specifically - basically, everything reliant on photosynthesis (and downstream consumers of photosynthesis products) utilizes carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorus in a 106:16:1 ratio. Most aquatic biomass also conforms to this ratio - so when a coral eats some phytoplankton, its getting nutrients in the proper ratio.

When things get out of whack, and you have say - tons of nitrate, and your water column is phosphate limited - you start favoring organisms that can do things like create acidic microenvironments and dissolve aragonite to release phosphate. And when you have no nitrate - you start having issues with organisms that can utilize dissolved nitrogen gas from the air.

When things are in proper ratio - usually macro organisms- chaeto, corals, etc - are able to out compete the simpler organisms.
 

Vwluv10338

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I am struggling with this with my newish tank. It’s been up for a few months with rock I cycled in the tote for a month. My nitrates read 0 and my p04 is now 0. I dosed potassium nitrate the other day to get .25ppm but it was 0 the next day. When I turn my fuge light time down I tend to get brown algae worse where is was growing on my macro. Even then my nitrates were only 2ppm. Not sure if I need to keep the light on more or less. I had diatoms when I started the tank but never really had a green phase. I did have hair algae that came in on plugs start to get a bit out of control but my CUc took care of it
 

Ike

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IMO - 0.02 ppm PO4 is in the very low part.

Sincerely Lasse

Agreed. At least for the two checkers I've used, when my readings started to get to .03 or below I had problems. If it was higher than that I did not. You checker and how accurate it is may vary slightly. The best way to tackle this is with high proteinm foods which contain high percentages of PO4 by mass. It's one of the reasons why I'm such an advocate of high protein flake foods (50%+), which I've fed almost exclusively for the last 10 years.
 
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t5Nitro

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Just an update that I tripled my normal phos dose from 5ml to 15ml this morning and the euphylia and mushrooms as well as the blastos definitely look more full. I will check P again in the morning.
 

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