Glass (MH/T5) vs plastic (LED) is the subject of the moment!

A. grandis

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I was so nervous that I forgot most of I wanted to say in regards to lighting per say. LOL!!!!!!
It's very difficult to think 5 things and talk at the same time!!
I'm glad you guys can search under my name and see more here in the forum!!!

REFERENCES:
The info from the Orphek website:
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March 26, 2017

Infrared penetration into water, Emerson effect, Orphek Atlantik V4 new spectrum​


ORPHEK CHANGING HISTORY!​

Orphek-Atlantik-v4-aquarium-led-light-2017
We are very happy to announce that now we have the research to share with you about our new spectrum and the penetration of infrared into the water.
Till today you heard that in general infrared light from 780 nm can no longer penetrate the water. In addition, that light waves above 780 Nm are no longer perceptible to the human eye.
Well, not according to Ronny Schöpke from the German reef website www.salzwasserwelten.de who ran un experiment using the premises of Emerson and a combination of 2 Orphek 850 Nm Leds (5 watt) and 1 Orphek wide Red (5watt).
lights-pectrums-1600x900.png
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Infrared-spectrum-1600x900.png
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The results of this experiment leads to the following conclusion: The measurement with the Ocean optics Flame spectrometer thus proved that the wavelengths of 850 Nm in the infrared range penetrate easily through 60 cm salt water 35 PSI. A filter effect of 950 Nm was also found. The penetration of 850 nm would explain fluorescence measurements and absorption measurements, which often led to measurement data in the infrared range. Infrared therefore seems important similar to UV and UV. Just in the dark light of synthesis.
Thank you Ronny Schöpke for bringing this update information on infrared penetration and the possibility to show once more that Orphek is always ahead in its technological developments!
To read and check the entire experiment please enter to INFRARED LIGHT USABLE?
Orphek Atlantik V4 Aquarium LED lighting is proven to be the most technologically advanced with the highest performance level and maximum photochemical efficiency!
Our newest Atlantik V4 combines 16 new types of custom made dual core LEDs in the nanometer range from 380nm to 850nm for maximum photochemical efficiency.

So Infrared 850nm is one of the new improvements?​

Orphek innovations are mostly focused on the research to improve LED light spectrums and by doing so we have been a leader in the market for years.
The starting point of this new Orphek product started with the idea of developing a new LED Lighting solution that would mimic Nature by providing spectrums that are present in a natural environment.
Sun light provides a range of wavelengths and different lengths of light waves do not penetrate through the water equally. Red light is the first to be filtered out and can only penetrate a short distance. If you look at a coral reef in Nature you will notice that shallow reef corals live in warm waters.
The idea was to add to the ATLANTIK V4 enough infrared color to satisfy coral of all habitats. This new development isn’t something that happened overnight. A year of testing and experimenting went into this project before we were convinced that we came up with the ultimate spectrum for growing coral and the added benefit of viewing the coral with a more natural look.
The new ATLANTIK V4 LED Panel contains 16 new types of custom made dual core LEDs in the nanometer range from 380nm to 850nm.
Check our new ratio:
Atlantik V4 LEDs ratio map 20170307 update
if you need more details:

Why the New ATLANTIK V4 is the best product Orphek has produced today?​

  • 16 new types of custom made dual core LEDs in the nanometer range from 380nm to 850nm.
  • Renders most natural appearance to the tank form 10K to 50K
  • Provides enough RED and IR LEDs needed
  • Contains Full dimming capacity in all channels, 0-100% with progressive dimming.
  • Provides IoT technology & Free apps available (App Store & Google play)
  • Gives the ability to control and program 200+ individual units!

What else Orphek is offering you that others are not?​

  • A LED light that is made of full body acrylic. Our light is not only solid and durable, but also beautiful to display.
  • A LED light that has a length of 24.21” (615mm), a width of 9.37” (238mm) and a height of 2.11” (53.6mm) .
  • A LED light that comes not with any driver, but with Mean Well driver (model HLG-240H-48A) – we give you what the market has best to offer!
  • A LED light that comes with a customized plug for your region.
  • A LED light that comes with a hanging kit with no extra costs.

FEATURES​

PROGRAM/CONTROL/MONITORING (IoT)
CHECK ATLANTIK V4 VERSATILITY AND WHAT IT CAN DO FOR YOU!
Connectivity & Monitorning

  • Built- in Wireless Worldwide Remote and Local programming, control and monitoring
  • Compatible with Wi-Fi/ 3G and 4G Internet connectivity
  • Compatible with IOS (Iphone and Ipad) and Android (Cell and tablet)
  • Free apps available (App Store & Google play)
Programming
  • Ability to program multiple Atlantiks individually, in groups or in unison.
  • Eight pre-installed programs/ unlimited custom programs and group programming.
  • Large storage with capacity for additional programs.
  • Full dimming capacity in all channels, 0-100% with progressive dimming.

LEDS & LENS

CHECK THE NEW SPECTRUM FOR OPTIMAL CORAL BEAUTY, GROWTH, COLOR & HEALTH!
  • New 78 customized high efficiency 5w Dual-Chip power LEDs – total of 156 individual LEDs.
  • New 16 different types of Dual chip wide range LEDs. 380nm UV to 850nm Infra red!
  • First company to introduce the Infra red 850nm
  • New Spectrum for better coral growth, color and health.
  • Four separate control and programming channels.
  • Lens Options: Wide convex for tanks under 42” deep and 90 degree narrow for tanks over 48” deep.

SPECTRUM & EFFICIENCY

  • Highest PAR/PUR per watt.
  • Highest Spectrum output.
  • High efficiency power supply.
CHECK WHAT COMES WITH YOUR LIGHT! (INCLUDED)
  • Power cord with waterproof connector
  • Stainless steel hanging kit
  • Driver
  • Mean well Fan-less IP65 power supply
If you wish to know more about this product click on the ATLANTIK V4 PRODUCT PAGE
If you are also from Europe or any country around the globe and you are also wishing to:
  • Improve the quality of life of your corals and marine species
  • Install a neat and easy to clean fixture
  • Own not only a conceptual design LED light solution, but a true color & growth technology
We will be very happy to find the best Orphek LED Lights for your tank.

FROM: https://orphek.com/infrared-penetration-water-emerson-effect-orphek-atlantik-v4-new-spectrum/
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Thank you @jda ! You were the first to mention Emerson effect here! You are great contributing to the truth!!

The new quantum sensor:

Thank you very much @Dana Riddle! Looking forward to see experiments with this new sensor, my friend!

I'll also leave those nice videos of Tullio as a reference to the video above because Tullio @Reefbrite is one of the most important reasons why we can understand most of the explanations about metal halides. Thank you very much Tullio!!!!!!!!




Thank you Hamilton Technology for the great example all these years with quality and superb customer service!

Hope you guys enjoy the video and understand once for all that we should be together in this and teach this new generation what is the real importance of reef lighting.
I opened this new thread because I didn't want to hijack others to post all the references for easy access.
No intention to discuss what we already know, right?
 
Zoanthids
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A. grandis

A. grandis

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Enjoyed the interview. Some very insightful sentiments, most of which I agree with. Also good to put faces with names as well. Reminds us there are real people behind every post
Thanks very much, Bpb! I appreciate the insight!
 

Mike S

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Listened to it yesterday afternoon and really enjoyed it. As I was watching it early on I was thinking how much it reminded me of some of the MH/T5/LED debates here and now I know why lol.
 
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A. grandis

A. grandis

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Listened to it yesterday afternoon and really enjoyed it. As I was watching it early on I was thinking how much it reminded me of some of the MH/T5/LED debates here and now I know why lol.
LOL! I had a list of things to talk about. Didn't have time to get to any of it. And unfortunately Keith changed the subject to rocks at the end, to mellow out the chat, I guess.
I was so nervous I had to drink water all the time cause my mouth was dry! LOL! But I guess everything worked out as it should. I'm sure it wouldn't be enough time to present everything I wanted anyway. I'm glad you watched! Thanks, Mike!
 
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denvereefroli

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LOL! I had a list of things to talk about. Didn't have time to get to any of it. And unfortunately Keith changed the subject to rocks at the end, to mellow out the chat, I guess.
I was so nervous I had to drink water all the time cause my mouth was dry! LOL! But I guess everything worked out as it should. I'm sure it wouldn't be enough time to present everything I wanted anyway. I'm glad you watched! Thanks, Mike!
LOL! I had a list of things to talk about. Didn't have time to get to any of it. And unfortunately Keith changed the subject to rocks at the end, to mellow out the chat, I guess.
I was so nervous I had to drink water all the time cause my mouth was dry! LOL! But I guess everything worked out as it should. I'm sure it wouldn't be enough time to present everything I wanted anyway. I'm glad you watched! Thanks, Mike!
watched your interview with Keith last night and enjoying it. Thanks for sharing your insights.
 

zalick

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Thanks Alex! I watched it last night. Great interview. I had no idea the Orpheks were so different than all the other LEDs. Good analysis of them and I won’t hold it against you. ;)

did you mention another LED that i never heard of? Ridiculously expensive?
 
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A. grandis

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Thanks Alex! I watched it last night. Great interview. I had no idea the Orpheks were so different than all the other LEDs. Good analysis of them and I won’t hold it against you. ;)

did you mention another LED that i never heard of? Ridiculously expensive?
Haha! The only reason why I've mentioned Orphek was because of the interesting fact that they had that important information about the Emerson effect published on their website. LED users should understand how important IR is, after that. Even though the UV and IR produced by diodes don't even get close to what a metal halide lamp produces, distribute and delivers, as we know. Our friend @jda and I always have pointed out here many times for many years our assumption of the importance of UV and IR utilized in photosynthesis, pigments' formation (and for coral/system health in general), and he was the first one to showed us that page and to mention Emerson effect in the past! Thank you, jda!
And specially right now, with the discover of the great importance of IR in photosynthesis by the scientists (see apogee linked video in post #1). Thanks for telling me before my interview, @Dana Riddle!

Lani is the other LED ridiculously expensive!


"...999€ for the large original 40 x 40cm."

Thanks for the comment, zalik. Much appreciated!
 

blasterman

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Just curious what any of this has to do with corals.

Grandis has been pushing an anti LED stance for awhile trying to find some reason that LED tech can't grow corals. Now its near infrared, which penatrates water about at well as gamma rays.

Next week I'm sure it will be microwaves.

The Emerson effect near as I read it has to do with far red, not near infrared, and Orphek likes to load their arrays with every known type of LED because its the only way to differentiate their lights in the market. The radiometric energy level of these weird LEDs arent in proportion to the sun anyways.

So, if we are trying to say Orpheks grow coral better than other lights because they have lots of LED colors then prove it without talking to a rep from a company. Radion has their claims, Neptune has theirs, etc. They need to sell product.

Our captive corals aren't being limited in terms of photosynthesis. We are baking them in photosynthetic light and having to turn them down. Throwing more bandwidths of spectrum into the mix won't improve things or grow corals better but it does make for cool marketing. It also confuses beginners and is a detriment to the hobby.
 
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oreo5457

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Just curious what any of this has to do with corals.

Grandis has been pushing an anti LED stance for awhile trying to find some reason that LED tech can't grow corals. Now its near infrared, which penatrates water about at well as gamma rays.

Next week I'm sure it will be microwaves.

The Emerson effect near as I read it has to do with far red, not near infrared, and Orphek likes to load their arrays with every known type of LED because its the only way to differentiate their lights in the market. The radiometric energy level of these weird LEDs arent in proportion to the sun anyways.

So, if we are trying to say Orpheks grow coral better than other lights because they have lots of LED colors then prove it without talking to a rep from a company. Radion has their claims, Neptune has theirs, etc. They need to sell product.

Our captive corals aren't being limited in terms of photosynthesis. We are baking them in photosynthetic light and having to turn them down. Throwing more bandwidths of spectrum into the mix won't improve things or grow corals better but it does make for cool marketing. It also confuses beginners and is a detriment to the hobby.
Besides yet to find any info 850-ish nm has anything to do w/ the Emerson effect.
Nor is the Emerson effect even a "necessity".
Now it may increase dry weight BUT it is species dependent.. at least for terrestrials.


An unexpectedly high value of FRIFS was
revealed at 740 nm (FRIFS740) and a small FRIFS was
registered even at 760 nm.


"Effect" is already tailing off at 760

Simple white LED has 6% of it's PPF in far red (700-800nm) per lumiled anyways.


note: Lani was released (in the US?) in 2016..
The Lani website quotes: “With the LANI it is possible for the first time to illuminate hard coral tanks at the highest level and exclusively with LEDs.” We hope that statement is a legacy from the 2012 launch, as the rest of the world has been lighting and growing hard corals with LED for over a decade...
We know from our own industry experience that as price goes up, (especially to +$1000 a unit,) the number of units actually sold drops significantly. So we predict a very slow take-up for the 16”, $2800 Square (outside Germany at least,) both by the aquatic trade and reefing community, despite many of us dreaming of owning and running them.

Lani looks on paper like a precision-made, high-end piece of quality German engineering but its prohibitive price tag makes it a niche of a niche, and that sadly it won’t be our niche.
 
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A. grandis

A. grandis

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Just curious what any of this has to do with corals.
Zooxanthellae - photosynthesis, per Dana Riddle.
I believe there is more benefits to it, like some pigment formation as well, no proof.

Grandis has been pushing an anti LED stance for awhile trying to find some reason that LED tech can't grow corals. Now its near infrared, which penatrates water about at well as gamma rays.
Here we go... please quote me on that. I would never say "LED tech can't grow corals"! How stupid would I be? LOL!! I've heard many LED users accusing me of that. Guess what? They didn't come back with a quote from any of my lines. I'm tired of these type of accusations. I've heard this for more than million times. LOL! No bad feelings.

Next week I'm sure it will be microwaves.
You are trying to put words in my mouth again. I don't even like to use microwaves to heat up my food! LOL!

The Emerson effect near as I read it has to do with far red, not near infrared, ...
Actually the experiments show that 2 photosystems work together to optimize electron transport and photosynthetic rates. One is more sensitive to 680nm photons and the other sensitive to 700nm, and far-red light up to 850nm!! That is exactly what we find using metal halide lamps over any tank. Please read the text published by Orphek explaining. If you do a general search on Emerson effect you will find this information online. This is one of the explanations why we can have a tremendous advantage in photosynthesis using metal halide in a very safe and complete fashion. Very elegantly to resemble nature. No LEDs will be able to supply the complete spectrum of a metal halide bulbs with the intensity, distribution and delivery form of photons. They would melt. If they would make a glass UV diode one day it wouldn't justify the price and practicity for aquarium use.

sunlight energy.png


Iwasaki 65K :Radium 20K.png


Phoenix 14K : XM 10K.png


... and Orphek likes to load their arrays with every known type of LED because its the only way to differentiate their lights in the market. The radiometric energy level of these weird LEDs arent in proportion to the sun anyways.

So, if we are trying to say Orpheks grow coral better than other lights because they have lots of LED colors then prove it without talking to a rep from a company. Radion has their claims, Neptune has theirs, etc. They need to sell product.
LOL! You should know better... I would not recommend nor try to justify ANY LED marketing strategy or any propaganda, specially comparing to the qualities of a metal halide. No! The only reason I brought up Orphek is because they recognized and published the need of the UV and IR on their web site showing an experiment done in Germany with their diodes. We know that metal halides are the best example to resemble natural sunlight.

Our captive corals aren't being limited in terms of photosynthesis. We are baking them in photosynthetic light and having to turn them down. Throwing more bandwidths of spectrum into the mix won't improve things or grow corals better but it does make for cool marketing. It also confuses beginners and is a detriment to the hobby.
Just like terrestrial plants? Like an experiment using targeted wavelenghts?
I hope all the beginners could see this thread and learn that with metal halides and/or T5s they WILL grow corals spending less money in the long run, specially because they won't waste money with upgrades or supplementation to make LEDs work, etc... They won't need to justify their very high initial investment to convince themselves either! They would plug & play and see results in a save and established proven rich light source that provides a healthy system and corals PROFUSELY growing. I love this word!!
That alone would keep many beginners in the hobby and it would actually truly grow, generally speaking. This just my personal opinion.

I don't think I need to prove anything besides showing any results anymore. Specially after what Tullio Dellaquila has been publishing for the past years AND the actual results testified in this forum by many users.
By they way... halide users don't normally come here in this forum because they won't need to "fix" anything wrong.

One thing is very important, as I've always have said: if you really like to use your LEDs instead, please go ahead. Remember: the only thing we shouldn't actually say is that LEDs are BETTER than halides, because halides will resemble natural sunlight much better in many ways, specially spectrum. Besides they can be used in different applications.
Frankly... any light can "grow" corals. It just happened that halides/T5s are the best IMO.
Thanks for watching and for your comment.
 
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A. grandis

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Besides yet to find any info 850-ish nm has anything to do w/ the Emerson effect.
Nor is the Emerson effect even a "necessity".
Now it may increase dry weight BUT it is species dependent.. at least for terrestrials.





"Effect" is already tailing off at 760

Simple white LED has 6% of it's PPF in far red (700-800nm) per lumiled anyways.


note: Lani was released (in the US?) in 2016..


 
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Kfactor

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Thanks very much, Kfactor! One more thread to have our little space and share pictures and videos of our halide systems. Let's have fun!
i cant wait to post pics of my setup when i start putting corals you are a huge inspiration for me going mh
 
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A. grandis

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i cant wait to post pics of my setup when i start putting corals you are a huge inspiration for me going mh
Thank you very much for your kind words!
Please feel free to post them here when you are ready, my friend.
Cheers!
 

hart24601

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For me the definitive moment was when Adam from battlecorals using my, t5 and led plumbed in the same system has not noticed any growth or color variations when kept at the same intensity between lighting types. That and thermans led system.
 
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