Glass (MH/T5) vs plastic (LED) is the subject of the moment!

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A. grandis

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For me the definitive moment was when Adam from battlecorals using my, t5 and led plumbed in the same system has not noticed any growth or color variations when kept at the same intensity between lighting types. That and thermans led system.
Yes, that was indeed very interesting, but I wonder if he still love those Iwsakis as the very best to grow corals. And everyone knows the Iwasakis are the best.
 
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I'll write points here to settle some characteristics, so we get in the same page for this thread:

1) I'm not using Emerson effect to justify my preferences for metal halide or T5 use. I simply mentioned it because for many people photosynthesis is the major definitive factor for them to say that LEDs will already supply the best valid option, with "manipulative advantages", while in truth they can't even get close to what metal halides can offer, if Emerson effect is taken in consideration. This is a great important discovery for plant and coral growers! We might not fully understand scientifically why metal halides gives the superb results, but our eyes already testify, and it's most likely not exclusively related to photosynthesis, IMO!

2) Metal halide is still a very valid option to grow corals and has it's huge advantages in many ways. The best to reproduce sun light in my opinion! Now we know why IR ("heat") is also an important consideration and beneficial quality for coral metabolism!

3) LED companies are the ones comparing their "pucks & panels" to metal halides and T5s claiming their products are the "best" for many years, not the other way around! That is the reason why I keep posting metal halides' evident advantages and benefits. Market strategy using propaganda in any shape and form should be analyzed and rejected IMO.

4) This thread isn't to explain anything, but to expose the valid options and debunk the LED trade as "the only valid option" in the future of reef lighting in this hobby!

5) If you still didn't get the messages from Tullio Dellaquila, the testimonials in this forum after changing to halides, and what I've wrote all these years and said in my interview, you are probably ignoring all that, defending your LED investment, like the aesthetic results from your LED fixture, don't have any experiences with halides and/or T5s at all and therefore don't know better, or you are in the LED market for a profit!

6) We don't have to argue! Every one is entitle to to their own words, observations, opinions and choices. Let people, specially the newbies, to see the valid options and choose what they think is the best for their systems! Remember: the LED manufacturers are the ones using aggressive messages in all of this. They are desperate to keep their sales go up and now some online stores are also using market strategy to suffocate metal halides and T5s to promote LED sales, removing halides from their inventory. They talk about future upgrades even before they have the "last gen" out for sale. Talk about using customers to pay huge amounts of money to test their products for the next upgrade?! You won't see it only if you don't want to! All about money!

7) If you choose LEDs as the primary source of light for your system prepare to spend more than what the manufacturers recommendations are for a decent result. Their limitations are real and application needs to follow! You will have to learn the curves of using your fixture and spend time to figure out the best way to apply to your system. You will have limitations in spectrum, comparing to halides and T5s and results will show in the long run. Your risks of loosing corals during the learning process is also something to consider. Always remember that final results and stability will take some time. Always plan to adapt your new corals very carefully. See, I'm not against you!

8) Main reason to open this thread was to avoid conflicts and hijack other threads, simply.

9) Enjoy your life! It goes really fast!

10) LEDs grow corals "just fine".
But halides will grow them profusely!


Love you, Mike Paletta!!!!!!
 
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To help those who want to find some metal halide gear:

Aquarium Specialty carries Radium (special order) and other metal halides.
https://www.aquariumspecialty.com/lighting.html?cat=2916

Hamilton carries a large number of options for metal halide gear. Under production right now!
https://hamiltontechnology.com/

Premium Aquatics have a large selection of ReefBrite halide gear
https://premiumaquatics.com/category/metal-halide-aquarium-lighting.html?page=1&filter_brand_id=

Marine Depot also carries a large selection of halide products including Radium bulbs in stock!:
https://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium-lights/metal-halide

ReefBrite:
https://www.reefbrite.com/
 
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BEFORE, with metal halides:


AFTER 7+ years under LEDs:

This is what I've mentioned during my interview:
Halides or LEDs?
 
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For those who may think I was kidding when suggested to ask your kids or grandma what LEDs look like in comparison to T5s or halides:

"A grandmother said it likes I took down a christmas tree and put some sunshine over the tank. She is 90 and does not lie."


Can you imagine if she saw my tank? She would probably ask for a beach chair to watch the fish swimming under my 2 X 250W 14K Hamilton and 4 X 54W ATI Blue Plus bulbs. LOL!
I would probably have to grab some sunscreen and sun glasses as well! LOL!
 
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:)
YzZYGKO5-S0GT2B2tN5TAxo2q7ewUZ_ZYbVM7MWVf7FCj7ySbMO79K211mhm8Q7DOoW-Ygiuko9PY792U6JMjOdovsOeMTJ8P71C-g06uq03Z9KE1AQ6tPDPSqbla8zb758V6PU4q_BgGQtEj04Gr1nFhg



Another important aspect of lamp orientation is the position of the pumping stem tip-off (PST) envelope blemish. This is the region where the fill gas tube was sealed during lamp fabrication. The tip-off blemish results in a distortion of bulb geometry and can be detected as a cold spot (in relation to the rest of the envelope) in thermal imaging maps of lamps during operation. Metal halide lamps mounted in the horizontal configuration should have the PST facing upwards (at the top of the bulb), and this is done at the factory for lamps integrated into reflectors. Such positioning prevents condensation of fill components in the PST region.

Nipple up ..
 
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If you are struggling with LEDs right now, your corals are dull or weak, growing sideways, showing weird shaped colony formations, and with dead spots under the colonies, and you already feel sad every time you see your tank, afte spending so much for your LEDs, please be advised that the music in this next video is extremely emotional and you will most likely cry wishing you your tank would be like this one. LOL!
Mr. Frank's tank is just a 75gal. and it was teeming with life when he recorded this video!

2X 250 W DE Metal Halide with 4X 54W Giesemann super actinic T5 lamps.
 
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This is my way to thank Hamilton for all the years they seved and are still serving this hobby with great options for halide gear. For those who see PAR as one of the most important aspects of lighting (don't forget that PAR won't tell you anything about spectrum per say!), here is some intensity measurements with that quantum sensor:
 
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I was so nervous that I forgot most of I wanted to say in regards to lighting per say. LOL!!!!!!
It's very difficult to think 5 things and talk at the same time!!
I'm glad you guys can search under my name and see more here in the forum!!!

REFERENCES:
The info from the Orphek website:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
March 26, 2017

Infrared penetration into water, Emerson effect, Orphek Atlantik V4 new spectrum​


ORPHEK CHANGING HISTORY!​

Orphek-Atlantik-v4-aquarium-led-light-2017
We are very happy to announce that now we have the research to share with you about our new spectrum and the penetration of infrared into the water.
Till today you heard that in general infrared light from 780 nm can no longer penetrate the water. In addition, that light waves above 780 Nm are no longer perceptible to the human eye.
Well, not according to Ronny Schöpke from the German reef website www.salzwasserwelten.de who ran un experiment using the premises of Emerson and a combination of 2 Orphek 850 Nm Leds (5 watt) and 1 Orphek wide Red (5watt).
lights-pectrums-1600x900.png
Screenshot-1327-1600x900.png
Infrared-spectrum-1600x900.png
Screenshot-1324-1600x900.png

The results of this experiment leads to the following conclusion: The measurement with the Ocean optics Flame spectrometer thus proved that the wavelengths of 850 Nm in the infrared range penetrate easily through 60 cm salt water 35 PSI. A filter effect of 950 Nm was also found. The penetration of 850 nm would explain fluorescence measurements and absorption measurements, which often led to measurement data in the infrared range. Infrared therefore seems important similar to UV and UV. Just in the dark light of synthesis.
Thank you Ronny Schöpke for bringing this update information on infrared penetration and the possibility to show once more that Orphek is always ahead in its technological developments!
To read and check the entire experiment please enter to INFRARED LIGHT USABLE?
Orphek Atlantik V4 Aquarium LED lighting is proven to be the most technologically advanced with the highest performance level and maximum photochemical efficiency!
Our newest Atlantik V4 combines 16 new types of custom made dual core LEDs in the nanometer range from 380nm to 850nm for maximum photochemical efficiency.

So Infrared 850nm is one of the new improvements?​

Orphek innovations are mostly focused on the research to improve LED light spectrums and by doing so we have been a leader in the market for years.
The starting point of this new Orphek product started with the idea of developing a new LED Lighting solution that would mimic Nature by providing spectrums that are present in a natural environment.
Sun light provides a range of wavelengths and different lengths of light waves do not penetrate through the water equally. Red light is the first to be filtered out and can only penetrate a short distance. If you look at a coral reef in Nature you will notice that shallow reef corals live in warm waters.
The idea was to add to the ATLANTIK V4 enough infrared color to satisfy coral of all habitats. This new development isn’t something that happened overnight. A year of testing and experimenting went into this project before we were convinced that we came up with the ultimate spectrum for growing coral and the added benefit of viewing the coral with a more natural look.
The new ATLANTIK V4 LED Panel contains 16 new types of custom made dual core LEDs in the nanometer range from 380nm to 850nm.
Check our new ratio:
Atlantik V4 LEDs ratio map 20170307 update
if you need more details:

Why the New ATLANTIK V4 is the best product Orphek has produced today?​

  • 16 new types of custom made dual core LEDs in the nanometer range from 380nm to 850nm.
  • Renders most natural appearance to the tank form 10K to 50K
  • Provides enough RED and IR LEDs needed
  • Contains Full dimming capacity in all channels, 0-100% with progressive dimming.
  • Provides IoT technology & Free apps available (App Store & Google play)
  • Gives the ability to control and program 200+ individual units!

What else Orphek is offering you that others are not?​

  • A LED light that is made of full body acrylic. Our light is not only solid and durable, but also beautiful to display.
  • A LED light that has a length of 24.21” (615mm), a width of 9.37” (238mm) and a height of 2.11” (53.6mm) .
  • A LED light that comes not with any driver, but with Mean Well driver (model HLG-240H-48A) – we give you what the market has best to offer!
  • A LED light that comes with a customized plug for your region.
  • A LED light that comes with a hanging kit with no extra costs.

FEATURES​

PROGRAM/CONTROL/MONITORING (IoT)
CHECK ATLANTIK V4 VERSATILITY AND WHAT IT CAN DO FOR YOU!
Connectivity & Monitorning

  • Built- in Wireless Worldwide Remote and Local programming, control and monitoring
  • Compatible with Wi-Fi/ 3G and 4G Internet connectivity
  • Compatible with IOS (Iphone and Ipad) and Android (Cell and tablet)
  • Free apps available (App Store & Google play)
Programming
  • Ability to program multiple Atlantiks individually, in groups or in unison.
  • Eight pre-installed programs/ unlimited custom programs and group programming.
  • Large storage with capacity for additional programs.
  • Full dimming capacity in all channels, 0-100% with progressive dimming.

LEDS & LENS

CHECK THE NEW SPECTRUM FOR OPTIMAL CORAL BEAUTY, GROWTH, COLOR & HEALTH!
  • New 78 customized high efficiency 5w Dual-Chip power LEDs – total of 156 individual LEDs.
  • New 16 different types of Dual chip wide range LEDs. 380nm UV to 850nm Infra red!
  • First company to introduce the Infra red 850nm
  • New Spectrum for better coral growth, color and health.
  • Four separate control and programming channels.
  • Lens Options: Wide convex for tanks under 42” deep and 90 degree narrow for tanks over 48” deep.

SPECTRUM & EFFICIENCY

  • Highest PAR/PUR per watt.
  • Highest Spectrum output.
  • High efficiency power supply.
CHECK WHAT COMES WITH YOUR LIGHT! (INCLUDED)
  • Power cord with waterproof connector
  • Stainless steel hanging kit
  • Driver
  • Mean well Fan-less IP65 power supply
If you wish to know more about this product click on the ATLANTIK V4 PRODUCT PAGE
If you are also from Europe or any country around the globe and you are also wishing to:
  • Improve the quality of life of your corals and marine species
  • Install a neat and easy to clean fixture
  • Own not only a conceptual design LED light solution, but a true color & growth technology
We will be very happy to find the best Orphek LED Lights for your tank.

FROM: https://orphek.com/infrared-penetration-water-emerson-effect-orphek-atlantik-v4-new-spectrum/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you @jda ! You were the first to mention Emerson effect here! You are great contributing to the truth!!

The new quantum sensor:

Thank you very much @Dana Riddle! Looking forward to see experiments with this new sensor, my friend!

I'll also leave those nice videos of Tullio as a reference to the video above because Tullio @Reefbrite is one of the most important reasons why we can understand most of the explanations about metal halides. Thank you very much Tullio!!!!!!!!




Thank you Hamilton Technology for the great example all these years with quality and superb customer service!

Hope you guys enjoy the video and understand once for all that we should be together in this and teach this new generation what is the real importance of reef lighting.
I opened this new thread because I didn't want to hijack others to post all the references for easy access.
No intention to discuss what we already know, right?
k-pop judging you GIF
 

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I'll write points here to settle some characteristics, so we get in the same page for this thread:

1) I'm not using Emerson effect to justify my preferences for metal halide or T5 use. I simply mentioned it because for many people photosynthesis is the major definitive factor for them to say that LEDs will already supply the best valid option, with "manipulative advantages", while in truth they can't even get close to what metal halides can offer, if Emerson effect is taken in consideration. This is a great important discovery for plant and coral growers! We might not fully understand scientifically why metal halides gives the superb results, but our eyes already testify, and it's most likely not exclusively related to photosynthesis, IMO!

2) Metal halide is still a very valid option to grow corals and has it's huge advantages in many ways. The best to reproduce sun light in my opinion! Now we know why IR ("heat") is also an important consideration and beneficial quality for coral metabolism!

3) LED companies are the ones comparing their "pucks & panels" to metal halides and T5s claiming their products are the "best" for many years, not the other way around! That is the reason why I keep posting metal halides' evident advantages and benefits. Market strategy using propaganda in any shape and form should be analyzed and rejected IMO.

4) This thread isn't to explain anything, but to expose the valid options and debunk the LED trade as "the only valid option" in the future of reef lighting in this hobby!

5) If you still didn't get the messages from Tullio Dellaquila, the testimonials in this forum after changing to halides, and what I've wrote all these years and said in my interview, you are probably ignoring all that, defending your LED investment, like the aesthetic results from your LED fixture, don't have any experiences with halides and/or T5s at all and therefore don't know better, or you are in the LED market for a profit!

6) We don't have to argue! Every one is entitle to to their own words, observations, opinions and choices. Let people, specially the newbies, to see the valid options and choose what they think is the best for their systems! Remember: the LED manufacturers are the ones using aggressive messages in all of this. They are desperate to keep their sales go up and now some online stores are also using market strategy to suffocate metal halides and T5s to promote LED sales, removing halides from their inventory. They talk about future upgrades even before they have the "last gen" out for sale. Talk about using customers to pay huge amounts of money to test their products for the next upgrade?! You won't see it only if you don't want to! All about money!

7) If you choose LEDs as the primary source of light for your system prepare to spend more than what the manufacturers recommendations are for a decent result. Their limitations are real and application needs to follow! You will have to learn the curves of using your fixture and spend time to figure out the best way to apply to your system. You will have limitations in spectrum, comparing to halides and T5s and results will show in the long run. Your risks of loosing corals during the learning process is also something to consider. Always remember that final results and stability will take some time. Always plan to adapt your new corals very carefully. See, I'm not against you!

8) Main reason to open this thread was to avoid conflicts and hijack other threads, simply.

9) Enjoy your life! It goes really fast!

10) LEDs grow corals "just fine".
But halides will grow them profusely!


Love you, Mike Paletta!!!!!!
lamp moth GIF
 

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@A. grandis , believe it or not, there are some “local” reef club mainstays that feel the same way about reef controllers, dry/man-made rock, and especially protein skimmers as you do about leds. I’ve seen some very feverish arguments opposing anything other than pacific harvested live rock and those that believe protein skimmers are the biggest scam to ever curse the hobby. Not picking a side personally as I’m just an observer in those arguments. Just sharing
 
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@A. grandis , believe it or not, there are some “local” reef club mainstays that feel the same way about reef controllers, dry/man-made rock, and especially protein skimmers as you do about leds. I’ve seen some very feverish arguments opposing anything other than pacific harvested live rock and those that believe protein skimmers are the biggest scam to ever curse the hobby. Not picking a side personally as I’m just an observer in those arguments. Just sharing
Very interesting! Like I've said, I did work with fresh live rock several times and know that is the best foundation of natural systems, just like live sand is. My research and experience with artificial live rocks is directly related to the fact that I can't have natural live rock in the house. There is absolutely no question that natural live rock is tremendously superior in quality than any well cured artificial live rock!

In regards to reef controllers, I enjoy having my ReefKeeper because of the consistency of dosing kalk and alk. I do not lay on them for anything else and I could dose by hand, like I used to during the 90's. Never had major problems about that. I also think those millions of dollars spent on expensive controllers with multiple tasks is just for those who cares more about them then the organisms per say. I see a lot of that, which is sad. It's like "a hobby inside of a hobby" type of thing.
Is that the way they also see?

Protein skimmer fashion is a scam IMO! Even though a protein skimmer is one of the best helpers, removing the excess of bacteria, organics, algae, phosphates (used with kalk), etc... 24/7 from our systems, which keeps it clean and somehow "aerated", it also removes traces, amino acids, etc.. but I always have a skimmer for my systems. I think skimmer and shark bag are great tools to control/export excess organics from any system and I always recommend them because they give us a tremendous comfort.

The fashioned skimmers are for millionaires that like to show off. LOL! I still have my AquaC 180 with Mag7 running. There is no need to replace a great skimmer if it's not broken and working better than any fancy round looking one. LOL! I also had the first cone skimmer ATB running for a long time and still have it, no need to buy another one in my life time. Maybe replace the pump if need, unless it cracks, or something like that.
I give more importance to the organisms than any equipment, because they are supposed to serve the system, not the other way around.
Is that what they also talk about?

Those subjects are still acceptable to debate about IMO. The deal with LEDs is more important in my point of view because lighting actually is used to feed the system. It's importance is above all other components... it's quality is vitally important IMO.

1623023906809.png
 
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You can have the best lighting in the world and if your water parameters suck..everything dies.
If the tank is too warm or cold.... everything dies.
Light is about 3rd in necessity..
Throw any light on there from hps to led and you can grow something.
 
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Very interesting! Like I've said, I did work with fresh live rock several times and know that is the best foundation of natural systems, just like live sand is. My research and experience with artificial live rocks is directly related to the fact that I can't have natural live rock in the house. There is absolutely no question that natural live rock is tremendously superior in quality than any well cured artificial live rock!

In regards to reef controllers, I enjoy having my ReefKeeper because of the consistency of dosing kalk and alk. I do not lay on them for anything else and I could dose by hand, like I used to during the 90's. Never had major problems about that. I also think those millions of dollars spent on expensive controllers with multiple tasks is just for those who cares more about them then the organisms per say. I see a lot of that, which is sad. It's like "a hobby inside of a hobby" type of thing.
Is that the way they also see?

Protein skimmer fashion is a scam IMO! Even though a protein skimmer is one of the best helpers, removing the excess of bacteria, organics, algae, phosphates (used with kalk), etc... 24/7 from our systems, which keeps it clean and somehow "aerated", it also removes traces, amino acids, etc.. but I always have a skimmer for my systems. I think skimmer and shark bag are great tools to control/export excess organics from any system and I always recommend them because they give us a tremendous comfort.

The fashioned skimmers are for millionaires that like to show off. LOL! I still have my AquaC 180 with Mag7 running. There is no need to replace a great skimmer if it's not broken and working better than any fancy round looking one. LOL! I also had the first cone skimmer ATB running for a long time and still have it, no need to buy another one in my life time. Maybe replace the pump if need, unless it cracks, or something like that.
I give more importance to the organisms than any equipment, because they are supposed to serve the system, not the other way around.
Is that what they also talk about?

Those subjects are still acceptable to debate about IMO. The deal with LEDs is more important in my point of view because lighting actually is used to feed the system. It's importance is above all other components... it's quality is vitally important IMO.

1623023906809.png

Honestly the arguments are all a bit over my head. But kind of in line with what you’re saying.
 
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Honestly the arguments are all a bit over my head. But kind of in line with what you’re saying.
Yeah, I don't really care about those arguments. People can have any skimmer they want IMO. If work$ for them, great. Live rock/ artificial live rock, they all work in the end of the day for what they do (filtration), if they have good qualities and when properly cured. You don't see a coral perishing in a system under metal halide with a "poor" (very subjective) skimmer and artificial live rock, but you can find corals perishing under LEDs in systems with RedSea skimmers and very expensive equipment, including those LEDs... It all depends on the owner as well... knowledge and dedication is what dictates success in this hobby... different levels too. I've said many times before... I have many friends that have great tanks under LEDs and they look really good, but most of them agree that they could do better under T5s or halides. Oh well...
 
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You can have the best lighting in the world and if your water parameters suck..everything dies.
If the tank is too warm or cold.... everything dies.
Light is about 3rd in necessity..
Throw any light on there from hps to led and you can grow something.
This is the one with the 3 X HQI 600 W:

 

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Yeah, I don't really care about those arguments. People can have any skimmer they want IMO. If work$ for them, great. Live rock/ artificial live rock, they all work in the end of the day for what they do (filtration), if they have good qualities and when properly cured. You don't see a coral perishing in a system under metal halide with a "poor" (very subjective) skimmer and artificial live rock, but you can find corals perishing under LEDs in systems with RedSea skimmers and very expensive equipment, including those LEDs... It all depends on the owner as well... knowledge and dedication is what dictates success in this hobby... different levels too. I've said many times before... I have many friends that have great tanks under LEDs and they look really good, but most of them agree that they could do better under T5s or halides. Oh well...
Oh
 

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You don't see a coral perishing in a system under metal halide with a "poor" (very subjective) skimmer and artificial live rock

I tend to believe age and health of biodiversity acts as just as effective of a buffer against coral mortality as quality halide light will. That has been my only experience though. You’ve been at this longer than me. I’ve killed an embarrassing number of corals from zoas on up to acropora under metal halides. Xm10k and radiums alike. Corals that grew prolific in the same tank where the only thing that changed was time, to share the adjective. Actually adding some real ocean harvested rock was a big turning point
 
BRS

Have you ever had a reef tank with no sump and how did it go?

  • YES and it was just fine

    Votes: 50 58.1%
  • YES but it was difficult

    Votes: 17 19.8%
  • NO

    Votes: 17 19.8%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 2 2.3%
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