Has anyone done coral/inverts only and no fish at first?

[Max93]

Fish seem to be the main cause of disruption in a display tank, given the current circumstances in the hobby with pests (ich, velvet, parasites, etc.). I have been in this hobby for 18 years, and the amount of pests that are showing up lately is much more (could also be the fact that we have more people which is stirring up the likelihood of pest appearances).

With the amount of new people in the hobby, and the multiple lessons with pests I think it is time to begin a new approach to reefkeeping. I am posting this for a discussion on thoughts about the pro's and cons of this strategy for a new tank. It will be terrible not having any fish for a year, or even two, but the amount of time and resources saved I think are worth it.

To summarize: why don't we cycle our tanks, add all the inverts and corals we want. Once your tank is colonized, THEN add your fully quarantined fish that you purchase from a reliable quarantine store (few vendors online) OR simply quarantine yourself. But, you can give your reef the headstart of colonizing your rocks, branching out, etc.

Think of it this way - the amount of headaches I have had due to a coral coming with ich, or a parasite, makes the hobby really unenjoyable and sad. We already know patience is key, so why not take it a step further?

Pros:

* Perfect nutrient control so your frags can establish efficiently.
* No need to worry about your new euphyllia coming with ich that will then in turn affect your fish.
* No need to worry about your snails/shrimps/crabs coming with ich.
* No need to quarantine your corals (Acros, softies, etc.) in a QT Tank that is not as stable as your display for 76 days to starve ich/velvet/etc. resulting in more coral death because of quarantine tank instabilities. Let's be realistic here, running TWO aquariums as an adult with responsibilities is not great and the hobby becomes more of a job. This is an opinion based on my experiences. Can be costly - who here TRULY QUARANTINES an acro frag for 76 days? Are you dosing your QT, same lights, etc.?
* No need to keep a quarantine tank running 24/7 just incase for emergencies due to the additionof something new infecting your already established fish. Netting the fish out, (well, all the fish because once 1 has it they all have it).
* Stability in your tank due to continuous running equipment. For example, no need to turn off your skimmer, GFO, carbon, UV, etc. because you're dosing a medicine and in turn affecting the balance of your water.
* Less water changes, less messing with the tank. A beginner can focus on keeping water, not trying to save their fish.
* Effectively run your tank *fallow* for over 4 months or longer. Everytime you add a new coral, re-start the 76 day process. The bigger the tank, the longer you wait.

Cons:

* No cool fish for a good while (just bare coral, which is still cool but you get the point).
* If one of your coral dies after all this, you'll have to quarantine your coral anyways. But, maybe finding a local hobbyist that has a beautiful aquarium that is as far as you can see 100% healthy, will mitigate the risk and trade corals with them instead.
* To the previous point, a coral died but you at least didn't loose hundreds if not thousands on fish. More of a pro, but I can see the downside.

At the end of the day I understand everything has its flaws. But, the reduction of risk on this approach I think is worth looking into. New way to make a tank (I know in the future I'll be doing this):

1. Cycle the tank
2. Stock it up with your frags/inverts
3. leave fallow for 90 days (I know it doesn't need to be 90 but for the sake of precaution).
4. Buy quarantined fish only
5. Happy reefer

What are your thoughts?

 

[dlsorensen]

So wait 90 days?? Sounds like the norm with adding fish. Or run a frag tank?? Sounds about the same IMO.

 

[Max93]

So wait 90 days?? Sounds like the norm with adding fish. Or run a frag tank?? Sounds about the same IMO.

So - add ALL your corals, go fallow. Let the corals colonize a bit. Then add fish.
I see most people buying corals after they already have fish (including me).

 

[MartinM]

I don’t like fish in my aquariums at all. The biodiversity without fish (especially with heavy feeding) is amazing!*

(*using live rock, of course)

 

[Max93]

I had the best acropora growth when my tank was fallow. Thanks for chiming in.
Fish are cool, but should be last to add.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

This is something I had lightly thought of.

I am currently on a break from the hobby and contemplating coming back. I am one of those guys who wants to ensure his pockets don’t go empty while also being able to ensure my tank no just survives but strives

This method is quite interesting. I want to hear if any other reefers have approached this method.

I may try this approach

 

[brandon429]

I have supported this option for years and recommended it,
nice post.

it would help greatly with fish loss and crashes but people want the quick payoff it’ll be a hard sell to the masses. Using fish in the cycle never was harming fish, bottle bac has been this good for more than ten years. It was a disease risk the whole time, even if they didn’t quick cycle.

disease expression is not tied to how slow or how fast someone cycles a reef tank, it’s tied to quarantine and fallow habits and ability. Telling aquarists that a nice slow cycle got their tank safer for fish than a quick cycle was one of the many harms of old cycling rules from the nineties
disease preps are what make a tank safe for fish


new tank uglies are greatly exacerbated with fish and heavy feeding and bright lights and the current trend to leave all invasions in place then change water parameters to hopefully starve them

if we want to lessen fish disease loss we have to redo the order of additions the public is currently doing.

Any reader of this thread needs to read this short article as an adjunct

Biosecurity

A short introduction to aquarium biosecurity

www.reef2reef.com

This post by Max93 specifically supports biosecurity just like that article shows. Cycling a new reef, then adding non prepped fish, then continuing to add pet store items without fallow and quarantine preps is the opposite of biosecurity and is flat out wasteful of fish, we can clearly see in searches.

 

[Dave1993]

been running with coral only for like 1 month now i dose nitrate and feed my scoly a few pellets every now and again

 

[gbroadbridge]

Fish seem to be the main cause of disruption in a display tank, given the current circumstances in the hobby with pests (ich, velvet, parasites, etc.). I have been in this hobby for 18 years, and the amount of pests that are showing up lately is much more (could also be the fact that we have more people which is stirring up the likelihood of pest appearances).

With the amount of new people in the hobby, and the multiple lessons with pests I think it is time to begin a new approach to reefkeeping. I am posting this for a discussion on thoughts about the pro's and cons of this strategy for a new tank. It will be terrible not having any fish for a year, or even two, but the amount of time and resources saved I think are worth it.

To summarize: why don't we cycle our tanks, add all the inverts and corals we want. Once your tank is colonized, THEN add your fully quarantined fish that you purchase from a reliable quarantine store (few vendors online) OR simply quarantine yourself. But, you can give your reef the headstart of colonizing your rocks, branching out, etc.

Think of it this way - the amount of headaches I have had due to a coral coming with ich, or a parasite, makes the hobby really unenjoyable and sad. We already know patience is key, so why not take it a step further?

Pros:

* Perfect nutrient control so your frags can establish efficiently.
* No need to worry about your new euphyllia coming with ich that will then in turn affect your fish.
* No need to worry about your snails/shrimps/crabs coming with ich.
* No need to quarantine your corals (Acros, softies, etc.) in a QT Tank that is not as stable as your display for 76 days to starve ich/velvet/etc. resulting in more coral death because of quarantine tank instabilities. Let's be realistic here, running TWO aquariums as an adult with responsibilities is not great and the hobby becomes more of a job. This is an opinion based on my experiences. Can be costly - who here TRULY QUARANTINES an acro frag for 76 days? Are you dosing your QT, same lights, etc.?
* No need to keep a quarantine tank running 24/7 just incase for emergencies due to the additionof something new infecting your already established fish. Netting the fish out, (well, all the fish because once 1 has it they all have it).
* Stability in your tank due to continuous running equipment. For example, no need to turn off your skimmer, GFO, carbon, UV, etc. because you're dosing a medicine and in turn affecting the balance of your water.
* Less water changes, less messing with the tank. A beginner can focus on keeping water, not trying to save their fish.
* Effectively run your tank *fallow* for over 4 months or longer. Everytime you add a new coral, re-start the 76 day process. The bigger the tank, the longer you wait.

Cons:

* No cool fish for a good while (just bare coral, which is still cool but you get the point).
* If one of your coral dies after all this, you'll have to quarantine your coral anyways. But, maybe finding a local hobbyist that has a beautiful aquarium that is as far as you can see 100% healthy, will mitigate the risk and trade corals with them instead.
* To the previous point, a coral died but you at least didn't loose hundreds if not thousands on fish. More of a pro, but I can see the downside.

At the end of the day I understand everything has its flaws. But, the reduction of risk on this approach I think is worth looking into. New way to make a tank (I know in the future I'll be doing this):

1. Cycle the tank
2. Stock it up with your frags/inverts
3. leave fallow for 90 days (I know it doesn't need to be 90 but for the sake of precaution).
4. Buy quarantined fish only
5. Happy reefer

What are your thoughts?

Aquaforest actually suggest starting the tank with coral first.

I've done it in a couple of tanks and it helps build up biodiversity before adding more complex animals.

 

[yanni]

I started my nano tank with just corals and live rock, adding my banded shrimp first then some snails, and clowns a little later. Was great, parameters have been super stable, allowed corals to get settled in and start growing where I could balance nutrient export before adding fish

 

[Dave1993]

Aquaforest actually suggest starting the tank with coral first.

I've done it in a couple of tanks and it helps build up biodiversity before adding more complex animals.

i think corals are more complexed fish are ezpz too keep look at corals wrong they die lol

 

[Dan_P]

So wait 90 days?? Sounds like the norm with adding fish. Or run a frag tank?? Sounds about the same IMO.

I was thinking the same thing about a frag tank. No fish right?

 

[i cant think]

Fish seem to be the main cause of disruption in a display tank, given the current circumstances in the hobby with pests (ich, velvet, parasites, etc.). I have been in this hobby for 18 years, and the amount of pests that are showing up lately is much more (could also be the fact that we have more people which is stirring up the likelihood of pest appearances).

With the amount of new people in the hobby, and the multiple lessons with pests I think it is time to begin a new approach to reefkeeping. I am posting this for a discussion on thoughts about the pro's and cons of this strategy for a new tank. It will be terrible not having any fish for a year, or even two, but the amount of time and resources saved I think are worth it.

To summarize: why don't we cycle our tanks, add all the inverts and corals we want. Once your tank is colonized, THEN add your fully quarantined fish that you purchase from a reliable quarantine store (few vendors online) OR simply quarantine yourself. But, you can give your reef the headstart of colonizing your rocks, branching out, etc.

Think of it this way - the amount of headaches I have had due to a coral coming with ich, or a parasite, makes the hobby really unenjoyable and sad. We already know patience is key, so why not take it a step further?

Pros:

* Perfect nutrient control so your frags can establish efficiently.
* No need to worry about your new euphyllia coming with ich that will then in turn affect your fish.
* No need to worry about your snails/shrimps/crabs coming with ich.
* No need to quarantine your corals (Acros, softies, etc.) in a QT Tank that is not as stable as your display for 76 days to starve ich/velvet/etc. resulting in more coral death because of quarantine tank instabilities. Let's be realistic here, running TWO aquariums as an adult with responsibilities is not great and the hobby becomes more of a job. This is an opinion based on my experiences. Can be costly - who here TRULY QUARANTINES an acro frag for 76 days? Are you dosing your QT, same lights, etc.?
* No need to keep a quarantine tank running 24/7 just incase for emergencies due to the additionof something new infecting your already established fish. Netting the fish out, (well, all the fish because once 1 has it they all have it).
* Stability in your tank due to continuous running equipment. For example, no need to turn off your skimmer, GFO, carbon, UV, etc. because you're dosing a medicine and in turn affecting the balance of your water.
* Less water changes, less messing with the tank. A beginner can focus on keeping water, not trying to save their fish.
* Effectively run your tank *fallow* for over 4 months or longer. Everytime you add a new coral, re-start the 76 day process. The bigger the tank, the longer you wait.

Cons:

* No cool fish for a good while (just bare coral, which is still cool but you get the point).
* If one of your coral dies after all this, you'll have to quarantine your coral anyways. But, maybe finding a local hobbyist that has a beautiful aquarium that is as far as you can see 100% healthy, will mitigate the risk and trade corals with them instead.
* To the previous point, a coral died but you at least didn't loose hundreds if not thousands on fish. More of a pro, but I can see the downside.

At the end of the day I understand everything has its flaws. But, the reduction of risk on this approach I think is worth looking into. New way to make a tank (I know in the future I'll be doing this):

1. Cycle the tank
2. Stock it up with your frags/inverts
3. leave fallow for 90 days (I know it doesn't need to be 90 but for the sake of precaution).
4. Buy quarantined fish only
5. Happy reefer

What are your thoughts?

The biggest con with this is;
Many fish we own are a risk to Inverts and Coral. If you get the coral and inverts in first then you can’t have freedom of choice with fish and need to be incredibly cautious. If you build corals first, you risk losing corals you’ve spent a year growing, just because you add a fish. You then also risk having inverts that will just be added to get killed if you add certain fish like wrasses, tangs, butterflies ect.

Also, the Bacteria in the tank after a year will remain the same, when you add fish you have to do it slower as Nitrifying bacteria is going to only be large enough to support your coral’s waste. So, you will risk a small spike in parameters if you aren’t careful. The other thing is, the waiting period for the tank to stabilise to add coral is generally 3-4 months. So you’ll wind up with a IOWLR (Invert Only With Live Rock) tank for half of the time it takes your tank to stabilise.

 

[Alvaro_Spain]

I only have hermits. They take care of the algae issues so well I don´t see any. In fact I feed the hermits LPS pellets. That way they produce the waste necessary for the cycle to keep on. Corals seem happy.

 

[gbroadbridge]

The biggest con with this is;
Many fish we own are a risk to Inverts and Coral. If you get the coral and inverts in first then you can’t have freedom of choice with fish and need to be incredibly cautious. If you build corals first, you risk losing corals you’ve spent a year growing, just because you add a fish. You then also risk having inverts that will just be added to get killed if you add certain fish like wrasses, tangs, butterflies ect.

Also, the Bacteria in the tank after a year will remain the same, when you add fish you have to do it slower as Nitrifying bacteria is going to only be large enough to support your coral’s waste.

If you know what fish you plan to introduce, obviously you would only start the tank with suitable coral/inverts.

 

[i cant think]

If you know what fish you plan to introduce, obviously you would only start the tank with suitable coral/inverts.

Honestly, that’s not always the case.
Fish will pick corals you may not think they will pick. Yes, we can give guidelines to what corals won’t be eaten but it’s never 100% and you may get a bunch of Acros for your Angel to eat half of them.

A Linear Blenny was in my SPS reef, because everyone says ‘They’re 100% reef safe’. Put it this way, any fluffy acro that went into the reef got eaten and picked at by him. This story shocks some and it’s because blennies are always seen as reefsafe but they aren’t 100% reef safe.
It’s like when you look into Clown Gobies, they’re said to be reef safe but the honest trust is they pose threat to SPS corals like Seriatopora species because they nest in them and often pick polyps off the underside of the coral. So what you can’t say 100% for sure is;
This stocking will not touch any of my corals at all, and none of my inverts will be affected. Because the truth is, each fish specimen will be different to the other.

 

[Max93]

Honestly, that’s not always the case.
Fish will pick corals you may not think they will pick. Yes, we can give guidelines to what corals won’t be eaten but it’s never 100% and you may get a bunch of Acros for your Angel to eat half of them.

A Linear Blenny was in my SPS reef, because everyone says ‘They’re 100% reef safe’. Put it this way, any fluffy acro that went into the reef got eaten and picked at by him. This story shocks some and it’s because blennies are always seen as reefsafe but they aren’t 100% reef safe.
It’s like when you look into Clown Gobies, they’re said to be reef safe but the honest trust is they pose threat to SPS corals like Seriatopora species because they nest in them and often pick polyps off the underside of the coral. So what you can’t say 100% for sure is;
This stocking will not touch any of my corals at all, and none of my inverts will be affected. Because the truth is, each fish specimen will be different to the other.

I get what you’re saying, but for instance - if you add shrimp, don’t get any hawk fish.

it depends on what you keep. I should state and clarify - start your tank with the corals and inverts you want being mindful of the fish you’re going to get in the future. You work around the fish to create a parasite free environment. Hence, don’t get fish that are going to eat your coral and inverts of course.

the sole purpose is to completely eradicate fish parasites, any parasite that needs a fish host to survive. Reduce this risk, and you will avoid significant water chemistry imbalances in the future.

you’re building an environment for your fish, but the environment needs to be there first. Don’t built it while the fish are in it.

moving forward every single tank I start, will be completely fishless until my corals are actually looking great, encrusting, and branching. THEN I will add fish that are 100% quarantined by a reliable source

The hobby needs a new step by step guide, we’re killing too many animals and really discouraging the less experienced, and the ones with a lot of experience alike.

cycle
Corals/inverts
Fallow
Fish
Enjoy

 

[Max93]

This is something I had lightly thought of.

I am currently on a break from the hobby and contemplating coming back. I am one of those guys who wants to ensure his pockets don’t go empty while also being able to ensure my tank no just survives but strives

This method is quite interesting. I want to hear if any other reefers have approached this method.

I may try this approach

You are at the perfect time to try it this way, do it!

 

[brandon429]

well said

nobody wants to have the side separate marine holding tank to fallow out every new entrant

so build the entire reef first, quit stocking stuff into it, then fallow it all at once. that delays the instant payoff of fish we can easily provide with skip cycling so I expect .02% of the populous to take this ideal method

they will make use of our instant cycling methods that work perfectly and without any test kits, then fill up Jay's and Humblefish's forums with help me posts. We are a conveyor belt directly to the disease threads

and so is old cycling science, excluding fish disease preps in 100% of its materials as it scares everyone with nitrite and made up ammonia noncompliance.

cycling causes disease by omitting disease talks

 

[i cant think]

I get what you’re saying, but for instance - if you add shrimp, don’t get any hawk fish.

it depends on what you keep. I should state and clarify - start your tank with the corals and inverts you want being mindful of the fish you’re going to get in the future. You work around the fish to create a parasite free environment. Hence, don’t get fish that are going to eat your coral and inverts of course.

the sole purpose is to completely eradicate fish parasites, any parasite that needs a fish host to survive. Reduce this risk, and you will avoid significant water chemistry imbalances in the future.

you’re building an environment for your fish, but the environment needs to be there first. Don’t built it while the fish are in it.

moving forward every single tank I start, will be completely fishless until my corals are actually looking great, encrusting, and branching. THEN I will add fish that are 100% quarantined by a reliable source

The hobby needs a new step by step guide, we’re killing too many animals and really discouraging the less experienced, and the ones with a lot of experience alike.

cycle
Corals/inverts
Fallow
Fish
Enjoy

I get what you’re saying about limiting fish pests, but internal parasites and other hitchhikers you get often lay low and don’t show until the fish is at deaths doors.
We will still try to blame the less experienced if something goes wrong, it’s just something you will always find in this any most other hobbies.

The other thing is the time gaps you’re saying, a year is nowhere near enough time to get nice sized colonies. and often people will still get new things even after the fish, it’s just the thing - once a new coral or clam is available and starts to get popular, everyone will want it.

And again, I will restate;
You can not just guess what a fish will and won’t eat in terms of coral. And if you have the fish first, you only risk losing one or two of that coral over when you get the coral first, you risk loosing 5-6 of that same species.
You can be given guidelines but you will never 100% know.